Running with your Gun: More Ayoobian Goofs

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Like Preacherman, I'm an LFI (I and II in August 1996) graduate. Massad was very personable (as were his two daughters and wife). I took a few photos with him and we chatted at one point at his house. I think he was a big reason why I got into LE "late in life" (at 34 years old).

I recall, the first and only lashing I got from him was for having my mag disconnect safety removed from my BHP...which will get re-installed when it goes back to Cylinder & Slide. Some of the things I learned from him I still do (reholster with my thumb on the rear of the slide; canting the gun slightly when shooting one-hand only, using a strong isoceles stance, etc.)

That said, he is fallible.....even in his writings.....His recent article regarding the 1998 deaths of Tampa detectives Childers and Bell by Hank Earl Carr had a number of inaccuracies....according to the person I'm dating who is a deputy from the Hernando County (FL) Sheriff's Office (and was back then) and is a friend of HCSO Deputy Kelly who was the hostage negotiator Massad talked about in the article. She told me Kelly saw the article and saw mistakes in it.

That all said....Massad was a good instructor and I would take more lessons from him.....and yes, he is a very good shot....he put about 5 rounds from my BHP into a ragged hole at about 10 yards.
 
Ayoob off subject

So Ayoob wrote an article with the title "Running with Guns"
and the article was about safety problems *moving* with
gun in hand (including plainclotheman being mistaken for perp).
Don't we all occasionally get off subject when we start running
with words?
 
What is missing in this analysis is the fact that Ayoob very likely didn't even write the title of the article. Usually that task is given to the editors, who have to fit titles into available space.

Even a wannabe gun writer would know that...
 
Common sense here.

Didn't mom tell you not to run with sissors?

Well, would a gun be any better?

Editors are the scourge of writers. I used to write articles for publications in my industry. I quit when I didn't even recognize my own stuff once printed.
If you make a living at it, you just have to take it.

I think they call it, creative freedom.
 
Let's see, I will try to answer some of the concerns brought up...

First and foremost, my review of Ayoob's work was just that, a review of the work. In no way did I bash Ayoob himself. Apparently, some of y'all don't see a difference between the man and his articles. Never once did I say that Ayoob was lacking, was a poor cop, a bad shooter, or somebody I can't trust because he has more hair than I have. I don't have any opinions about him in that manner at all. I don't know the man and for that reason, a lot of my review is unclouded by the high esteem many of y'all hold for him, especially all of y'all who regularly tell me that you have had classes with him. I think it is great you have had classes with him and hold him in such high regard. That doesn't change the poorly constructed article.

pax provided a long list of Ayoob's credentials in response to some of y'all that felt it necessarily to question the man himself. Neither side of that argument is relevant to the article. I see pax is recycling the information from elsewhere. No problem with that. I just like to check sources.

Here and elsewhere pax has defended Ayoob as to Ayoob's expert status, citing his resume and the fact that lots of people think him an expert. That is fine. He may be an expert. Sadly, his expert credentials don't translate too well to print and he consistently publishes articles with some amazing problems in them that I would not except from an "expert." If Ayoob made such blunders on the stand, his career as an expert witness would be very short. It is bothersome how readily a non-expert such as myself can spot so many problems in his writings.

As far as I am concerned, I am just taking a close look at a gun-related product that I have purchased, as many of us do with ammo, guns, belts, cleaning products, and courses we take. Is it really that troubling to some of you folks that I was not satisfied with a product that you like? People got mad at me on 1911 for describing the shortcomings of my Colt XS. You would have thought I had spoke ill of their mother. I simply had a product I did not like, but apparently we are not to speak misgivings of JMB's masterpiece, I learned.

And before anyone asks, I have read a tremendous amount of Ayoob's stuff and have owned and read all but one of his books. Based on the experiences recounted in those books, I could probably write him as glowing of a resume as pax has (and that I used to have) of Ayoob's. As I recall, parts of the resume are somewhat vague but when matched up with his books, you can actually plug in some specific information on his training, when and where he testified, etc.

insidious_calm, your insight into running with a gun was more insightful than the article. Thank you.

Marty Hayes, you said it was very likely Ayoob didn't even write the title, but you do think he wrote the article, right? The only reason I ask is because if you are suggesting that the article was mistitled by some editor or other writer, then maybe the article wasn't even by Ayoob because there are several places where the writer specificly mentions running with a gun/weapon or running with a holstered weapon. "Running," not "movement" or any other term, "running."

I have never doubted that Ayoob is often called to the witness stand to testify as an "expert witness" on various matters. Along those same lines, I have never doubted that he would have had such a career providing expert testimony if he made the same mistakes of context, content, math, cause and effect, etc. that I can readily spot as a non-expert in his writings. As far as I am concerned, I am just taking a close look at a gun-related product that I have purchased, as many of us do with ammo, guns, belts, cleaning products, and courses we take. Is it really that troubling to some of you folks that I was not satisfied with a product that you like?

Ayoob is not his writing and his writing is not him. From what I have read of Ayoob, my guess is that he is fully aware of that fact. Now if some of the rest of you will get on board with that notion, the articles, NOT THE MAN, can be discussed.

Robert Hairless, I don't agree with you on several of the points you made about the writing, but I wholeheartedly appreciate you taking the time to present a contrary perspective, showing proof of thought about the article and points of contention about the article. Like I said, I don't know Ayoob, but I know his writing. I am still trying to work through the Socratic method in regard to the NH match Ayoob described at length. You may need to PM the lessons I am apparently missing from there.
 
DNS ~

If by "recycled from elsewhere" you mean I made a similar post in response to similar comments in a similar thread on TFL, I plead guilty. I assure you I penned both posts myself, and I'm willing to bet that if you ran a detailed-enough search on my username, eventually you would come up with more than one or two places where I have repeated myself on other topics. (Shades of Oscar Wilde! "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation.")

My post wasn't in response to what you wrote, so I'm surprised you found it necessary to reply to me at length. I responded only to the fellow who thought Ayoob wasn't an expert in the field, which is an utterly ridiculous notion with no basis in fact whatsoever.

I agree with you, and with Jeff White, that the mere expert status of the author isn't enough to establish whether the article -- or the tactics suggested therein -- is credible. Even Homer nods, after all.
I don't know the man and for that reason, a lot of my review is unclouded by the high esteem many of y'all hold for him, especially all of y'all who regularly tell me that you have had classes with him.
Your unclouded view of the man has certainly resulted in an interesting online hobby.

pax
 
Dns...

In no way did I bash Ayoob himself.

Well then, why did you title this thread, "Running with your Gun: More Ayoobian Goofs" (bold highlighting mine)?

C'mon DNS, you have firmly established yourself as being the most vocal Ayoob critic on THR. Which is okay really. Only the most rabid Rush Limbaugh fan would try to say that such an "icon" must be spared any criticism.

And I will say that other than the title your post seems to have stuck more to the meat of the article than in the past.

No gun writer or instructor is right for everyone. Not even Mas Ayoob. But for criticism to be taken seriously a critic must come as much as possible from an unbiased background and it must show in his or her writings.
 
Double Nought Spy--
Of course you bash Massad Ayoob. That's what you do when you see his name. "Bash" is the appropriate word because it describes the intensity and commitment with which you pursue him. You do it often and with such passionate focus that I'm surprised to see you write that you haven't met Ayoob. My previous encounters with that particular kind of rage have led me to believe that it's generated by some real or imagined slight from its target. Perhaps you corresponded with him? Internet forums are an arena in which discontented people lacerate their personal demons in public view but rarely have I seen it done with such vitriolic attention to detail as you've focused on Massad Ayoob with such frequency over such a long time.

You've been doing it since at least the fall of 2003, when I joined this forum. In fact one of the first message threads that caught my eye when I joined was the thread you entitled "Flight Equals Guilt - Ayoobian Nonsense" when you started it on November 6, 2003--nearly two full years ago. It's the same kind of message you posted to start this present thread. You've posted others like it in the interim, and you've leapt into other people's threads to bash Ayoob when anyone mentions his name.

There even are common characteristics to your Ayoob-bashing messages. Many contain the insulting coinage "Ayoobian" in their titles and your references to Ayoob, just as in this present thread. I don't know or care whether you invented that coinage but you use it often, apparently as a category for a kind of fallacy you seem to think Ayoob commits or represents. Massad Ayoob is a human being, not a thing, and it's distasteful to see someone "thing" another human being, especially one not here to defend himself. Perhaps it's vaguely understandable when done to a public figure who knew or should have known that elevated positions attract equally elevated hatreds. But Massad Ayoob doesn't occupy so grand a stage. Ayoob is a talented and accomplished man in his field who has earned his stature through hard work and achievement. He is simply a person who has made a place for himself on the relatively small stage reserved for people who are interested in the defensive use of firearms. Ayoob is a star on that stage--deservedly so--but I don't understand why anyone would expend so much energy as you do on such continuing attempts to tarnish such a star.

You cast all of these threads as if they are a detailed examination of issues that concern you in something Ayoob wrote. But that apparent objectivity is only the guise for bashing the man and his work. Your message is not about running with guns because you have something to say about that subject. Your message is about Massad Ayoob and the article he wrote on the subject. Even your response to me, at the end of your composite reply to your many critics in this thread, concludes with a juvenile dig at him and me: "I am still trying to work through the Socratic method in regard to the NH match Ayoob described at length. You may need to PM the lessons I am apparently missing from there." Personage, rest assured that I don't need any direction from you at all. Neither, I think, does Massad Ayoob or those who read the article. I can evaluate it. So can everyone else.

The nature and extent of your folly is exemplified by the way you drag in-- usually without reason--Massad Ayoob's frequent service as an expert witness for the sole purpose of demeaning it. (You do it in responding to your critics here and you've done it elsewhere too.) Can't you see that your opinion just doesn't matter at all? An expert witness's credentials are presented and evaluated on each separate occasion for that occasion. Each judge decides whether to accept them on that occasion. What is significant is not your opinion but the opinions of the many attorneys that use and have used Ayoob as an expert witness and the many judges that have accepted him as an expert witness. What is decisively significant is that Massad Ayoob has been endorsed as the expert in the judicious use of lethal force by the American Bar Association and the American Law Institute. They sponsor, produced, and distribute the videotaped CLE course The Judicious Use of Lethal Force: What Prosecutors, Defenders, and Policy Makers Should Know for Continuing Legal Education credit. There are four faculty: one prominent prosecutor, one prominent defense attorney, one commissioner, and Massad Ayoob:
Massad Ayoob is the Director of the Lethal Force Institute in Concord, New Hampshire (www.ayoob.com) and a world-renowned expert in the training of government and police agencies in self-defense and firearms. He has considerable experience as an expert witness for prosecution and defense teams on the defensive use of lethal force and has written extensively on the topic. A police captain and vice chair of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), Mr. Ayoob is a member of the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors.
You seem unaware of or intentionally ignore a basic reality. Ayoob doesn't exist only at his word processor grinding out articles for hire where nobody can evaluate his actual proficiency at what he professes. He is constantly in the arena being tested and submitting himself to scrutiny. None of his many supporters are mere sycophants. Every one of us is at least as rigorous as you.

I do know Massad Ayoob professionally but I'm far too old to accept uncritically anything he or anyone else says from the mountaintop. My life depends on my own judgments. I'm even old enough to know that it is folly to blindly reject knowledge because of envy, arrogance, or personality flaws. I learn a lot that is good to know from Massad Ayoob, in part because I never have to wonder if his advice is tainted by blind hatreds. I wish I could learn something useful from your messages but everything you say about anything touched by Ayoob is tainted by your obvious persistent animosity.

I have the sense that reasonable people are telling you now that they see through what you're doing and have lost patience with it. You will do as you please, of course, but maybe it would be worth taking them seriously instead of addressing them all as attackers to be repelled.
 
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