Carry spare mags for CCW? If so, Full size or compact mags?
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Mr.510
Member
I carry an XD45 Compact loaded 10+1 on my right side in a Comp-Tac MTAC and a 13 round reload in a Comp-Tac Minotaur Concealment Pouch on my left. I carry a spare mag for the obvious reasons others have stated, the most important being in case of an issue with the 10 rounder in the weapon. Another reason that I always carry a spare mag is that both my holster and mag pouch are IWB and my pants don't fit right without both of them in place. I've been losing some weight and am thinking about going to an IWB magazine & tac light carrier on my left side as that should better balance the weight of the pistol and also make my pants and belt fit right again.
If I could start over I would make a weak side carrier out of an MTAC that holds two mags and a tac light. That would probably balance perfectly against the weight of the weapon on my strong side but would require bigger pants. If I drop twenty more pounds I may just do it...
If I could start over I would make a weak side carrier out of an MTAC that holds two mags and a tac light. That would probably balance perfectly against the weight of the weapon on my strong side but would require bigger pants. If I drop twenty more pounds I may just do it...
Please post where I said there is a gun that is 100% reliable.
Again, if you think your gun will fail in a fight then you need a new gun. If you think every gun will fail then you need a new plan.
Magazines are not the first point of failure. Failures come from operator error first, ammunition second, poor maintenance third, and then magazines. Perhaps you should carry a cleaning kit as well?
bigfatdave
Member
lose more weight and you'll have to get a bigger gun or a second gun!
(part of the reason I got my XD45c carry setup was to fill up newly loosened pants/belt, too)
I carry between 1-2 extra mags. In the summer I roll with a fanny pack which only holds one. In the winter I roll with a shoulder holster and the mag carrier holds two. Two mags is probably more than I'll ever need but in all actuality you need them to balance the whole rig out so you aren't walking sideways! 
. I carry extra mags because I can't stand the idea of carrying an semi-auto without at least one spare.
. I carry extra mags because I can't stand the idea of carrying an semi-auto without at least one spare.kwelz
Member
How much actual training have you had Bubba? I am guessing none. And no target practice isn't training.
kwelz
Member
So now asking a persons training level is personal? And you never did answer the question. Nore have you provided any info backing up your claims.
fastbolt
Member
There are so many ways to wander about with different aspects of this subject that just about anybody could find an answer which suited their own ideas and preferences, or something with which they disagree.
Short answer?
Yes, I typically carry 1-2 spare magazines when I carry a semiauto pistol.
Why?
Partly it's a habit from training & experience. I carried 2-3 spare magazines on my duty gun belt (depending on the weapon & carrier), and usually 1-2 spares when working plainclothes. That carried over to my off-duty (and now retirement) practices.
Partly from wishing to have the ability to resolve a magazine-related functioning problem, should it arise.
As a LE firearms instructor I've seen more magazine-related functioning issues and stoppages than I could possibly begin to list. (Yes, even when folks were using the most popular makes/models of the many metal or plastic-framed pistols favored by firearms enthusiasts.) I learned long ago that just because someone may not have personally experienced a magazine-related issue with their specific pistol, up to a specific point in time & usage, that doesn't mean it's not possible for it to happen to them the very next time they shoot.
Magazines are assemblies of parts. They can experience damage & wear. While it's preferable to discover such things during routine inspections, sometimes the problem may unexpectedly surface when the gun is being fired. The question may simply become one of whether this will be when the gun is being fired on the range, practice, or off the range, "for real".
Also, sometimes circumstances, or a holster which doesn't completely protect against unwanted pressure against the magazine catch, may result in someone drawing their pistol and seeing either a missing magazine (often later found in a car/truck seat, chair, etc), or having it unexpectedly fall free of the gun, or having it displaced enough to not feed rounds (which may not require another magazine, depending).
Oh yeah, I also don't mind having some spare ammunition at hand, should that ever prove necessary.
Just a couple days ago I decided to belt on one of my pistols when leaving the house, instead of slipping one of my J-frames into a pocket holster. (Some recent events, experiences and concerns had made it seem a more reasonable precaution after some risk assessment.)
As I was in my car and getting ready to drive off, I realized I was "too comfortable". I could feel the presence of my pistol, but not the spare magazine. Yes, I own and use excellent quality belt holsters & magazine carriers, but after wearing such things for off-duty throughout my career and for several years for a plainclothes assignment, some part of my awareness was triggered by something being "different".
Once I realized I'd left the spare magazine carrier in the house, I went back and got it. Years of habit (and training & experience) made it feel "wrong" to knowingly drive off without going back inside to get it.
And before someone comments that the "habit, training & experience" didn't seem to be such that it made me remember to put the spare mag on in the first place, I'd suggest that person think back to the last time they forgot their wallet, car keys or phone, themselves.
Then again, I still remember the first time I was a young cop and had left the jail after booking a prisoner ... only to realize some minutes later that I'd left my duty weapon in the gun locker and had to return to get it.
:banghead:
BTW, when I carry one of my 5-shot snub revolvers I usually carry at least 1 speedloader or speedstrip, and typically 2-3. In those instances it's partly because they're easy for me to carry ... and again, I started out carrying a pair of speedloaders on my duty gun belt when I carried an issued revolver, and carried a similar amount off-duty, as well. Habit. Having spare ammunition may prove necessary someday.
This subject might be tempered by considering how few folks who are able to lawfully carry concealed handguns may actually carry them that often, though. I've had occasion to meet a few hundred CCW-type folks over the years of being an instructor. Not very many of them carried their weapons all the time, or even much of the time. In a couple of seminars I attended, when the subject came up about how many active LE carried off-duty, some statistics were offered that only approx 20% may carry off-duty.
First things first ...
Just my thoughts.
Short answer?
Yes, I typically carry 1-2 spare magazines when I carry a semiauto pistol.
Why?
Partly it's a habit from training & experience. I carried 2-3 spare magazines on my duty gun belt (depending on the weapon & carrier), and usually 1-2 spares when working plainclothes. That carried over to my off-duty (and now retirement) practices.
Partly from wishing to have the ability to resolve a magazine-related functioning problem, should it arise.
As a LE firearms instructor I've seen more magazine-related functioning issues and stoppages than I could possibly begin to list. (Yes, even when folks were using the most popular makes/models of the many metal or plastic-framed pistols favored by firearms enthusiasts.) I learned long ago that just because someone may not have personally experienced a magazine-related issue with their specific pistol, up to a specific point in time & usage, that doesn't mean it's not possible for it to happen to them the very next time they shoot.
Magazines are assemblies of parts. They can experience damage & wear. While it's preferable to discover such things during routine inspections, sometimes the problem may unexpectedly surface when the gun is being fired. The question may simply become one of whether this will be when the gun is being fired on the range, practice, or off the range, "for real".
Also, sometimes circumstances, or a holster which doesn't completely protect against unwanted pressure against the magazine catch, may result in someone drawing their pistol and seeing either a missing magazine (often later found in a car/truck seat, chair, etc), or having it unexpectedly fall free of the gun, or having it displaced enough to not feed rounds (which may not require another magazine, depending).
Oh yeah, I also don't mind having some spare ammunition at hand, should that ever prove necessary.
Just a couple days ago I decided to belt on one of my pistols when leaving the house, instead of slipping one of my J-frames into a pocket holster. (Some recent events, experiences and concerns had made it seem a more reasonable precaution after some risk assessment.)
As I was in my car and getting ready to drive off, I realized I was "too comfortable". I could feel the presence of my pistol, but not the spare magazine. Yes, I own and use excellent quality belt holsters & magazine carriers, but after wearing such things for off-duty throughout my career and for several years for a plainclothes assignment, some part of my awareness was triggered by something being "different".
Once I realized I'd left the spare magazine carrier in the house, I went back and got it. Years of habit (and training & experience) made it feel "wrong" to knowingly drive off without going back inside to get it.
And before someone comments that the "habit, training & experience" didn't seem to be such that it made me remember to put the spare mag on in the first place, I'd suggest that person think back to the last time they forgot their wallet, car keys or phone, themselves.
Then again, I still remember the first time I was a young cop and had left the jail after booking a prisoner ... only to realize some minutes later that I'd left my duty weapon in the gun locker and had to return to get it.
:banghead:BTW, when I carry one of my 5-shot snub revolvers I usually carry at least 1 speedloader or speedstrip, and typically 2-3. In those instances it's partly because they're easy for me to carry ... and again, I started out carrying a pair of speedloaders on my duty gun belt when I carried an issued revolver, and carried a similar amount off-duty, as well. Habit. Having spare ammunition may prove necessary someday.
This subject might be tempered by considering how few folks who are able to lawfully carry concealed handguns may actually carry them that often, though. I've had occasion to meet a few hundred CCW-type folks over the years of being an instructor. Not very many of them carried their weapons all the time, or even much of the time. In a couple of seminars I attended, when the subject came up about how many active LE carried off-duty, some statistics were offered that only approx 20% may carry off-duty.
First things first ...
Just my thoughts.
You dont think asking about a person's training is personal? Really?
I asked a question to make the point: How long does it take an average person, even trained, to diagnose a magazine malfunction, clear the old mag and ammo, and insert a new mag?
The answer is going to be at least 5 seconds, by whcih point the fight is over.
kwelz
Member
No I don't think asking about a persons training is personal. Not only is it not personal but it is very pertinent to this discussion. 5 seconds is a pretty long pistol reload in an emergent situation. You once again haven't shown a shred of coherent evidence to back up your side in this and instead have made claims of personal attacks to try to shift attention away from the discussion at hand.
And for the record I have over 100 hours of formalized training under VSM, Ken Hackathorn, and others in the past 18 months alone. I am by no means an expert but I have an understanding of how and when weapons will fail as well as how to handle the situation.
Every gun will fail. I have seen just about every possible type of failure from pistols and rifles. Glock, 1911s, M&Ps, especially Sig and Beretta.
What is so hard to understand that mechanical devices can malfunction. And the most common part that malfunctionse is the magazine. It doesn't matter what brand you pick it can and will happen. and Murphy tells us it will happen when we last want it too.
And for the record I have over 100 hours of formalized training under VSM, Ken Hackathorn, and others in the past 18 months alone. I am by no means an expert but I have an understanding of how and when weapons will fail as well as how to handle the situation.
Every gun will fail. I have seen just about every possible type of failure from pistols and rifles. Glock, 1911s, M&Ps, especially Sig and Beretta.
What is so hard to understand that mechanical devices can malfunction. And the most common part that malfunctionse is the magazine. It doesn't matter what brand you pick it can and will happen. and Murphy tells us it will happen when we last want it too.
I can do it in less than 5 seconds, and I'm not even close to pretending to be fast or special.
In training we'd set up failures with dummy rounds, sometimes intentionally set up double feeds, have others set our mags up when we didn't know when/where/if it would fail, and we'd have to fix it during the course of fire. 5 seconds is a long time
In training we'd set up failures with dummy rounds, sometimes intentionally set up double feeds, have others set our mags up when we didn't know when/where/if it would fail, and we'd have to fix it during the course of fire. 5 seconds is a long time
1911 guy
Member
If you can't go from down gun to running gun, including both malfunction drills, in less than 5 seconds, you need to train harder. Read my previous post in this thread, #17.
As for likelyhood of failure, look into the actual stats of stoppages and you will find that for autoloading pistols, magazine failure is far and away the leading cause. Fauly ammunition, which someone posted as being more common than mag failure, is almost non-existant. Does it happen? Sure. But you're FAR more likely to get a mag failure.
As for likelyhood of failure, look into the actual stats of stoppages and you will find that for autoloading pistols, magazine failure is far and away the leading cause. Fauly ammunition, which someone posted as being more common than mag failure, is almost non-existant. Does it happen? Sure. But you're FAR more likely to get a mag failure.
fastbolt
Member
Someone's knowledge, experience and actual ability (on any given day, in any given set of circumstances) to recognize and both properly & effectively resolve the problem, within a time frame which might be useful in any given set of circumstances, is a subject which has been studied & discussed by any number of different folks.
Presuming the ability to reload ... or identify a magazine-related problem, resolve it and load the weapon to continue normal operation ... and a reasonable expectation of how quickly these things ought to be done by someone is probably going to vary fairly widely. After all, there's the sporting/competition folks, the professionally armed folks (who may, or may not, be "firearms enthusiasts") and the privately armed folks (who may have any variety of interest in such skills, let alone training to learn them and effectively practicing to maintain them).
Which "standard" are you going to adopt and adhere to when it comes to carrying a pistol as a dedicated defensive weapon?
While I've formed some ideas after having watched a lot of folks do such things on training, practice & qual ranges over the years, to varying degrees of skill, the actual circumstances, awareness and mindset which can occur during an actual "real life" situation may well evoke a response other than anything previously experienced in training, or expected, for that matter.
An example ...
I know of a LE shooting where a fellow was using a popular, well respected and admired plastic framed .45 pistol, loaded with one of the well respected LE-Only lines of hollowpoint ammunition. Unfortunately, as soon as the fellow encountered an armed suspect who fired a weapon, and he brought his own weapon into use, he experienced some feeding stoppages which required time to resolve. Fortunately, another cop was present who was able to engage the armed suspect (hitting the suspect several times), during which time the cop with the malfunctioning .45 was able to avoid getting shot and finally get his gun functioning again.
How qucikly is "quick enough" to resolve a stoppage or other malfunction? Dunno. I can come up with some "acceptable time limits" for training & qual situations, but I can't presume to suggest whether those "times" will prove fast enough for any particular situation or set of circumstances which might befall someone outside the range environment.
I can suggest, however, that having an understanding of how to identify and resolve such problems might be more practical, and perhaps even critical to know at some future time, than ignoring the possibility and not learning how to deal with such things under the watchful eye of an experienced instructor.
If the successful and effective resolution to a magazine-related problem/stoppage requires the availability of another magazine, and someone doesn't have one on them at the time it's necessary, then even having the knowledge and skill might become a moot point.
(Which is one of the reasons I stopped the car and went back into the house to retrieve my spare magazine the other day. )
Now, how fast is fast enough? Well, if you ever arrive at a definitive answer ... other than "fast enough for whatever the situation may be" ... let us know. I'll pass it along to the other instructors and the folks I train.
It probably won't matter to anyone who doesn't carry a spare magazine, though. Not in time, anyway, should they find themselves in that sort of situation.
Oh yeah, I skipped the part of the original question regarding whether to carry a "full-size compact mag". I've done both. Mostly I've simply carried the stock mags for whatever pistol I was carrying. Depending on the specific model/caliber, and how well it could be expected to function when used with a mag from the next-size-up model, I've sometimes carried a larger spare. Just depends. I can think of the instructor in one of my many armorer classes addressing such a question (which isn't uncommonly asked). He hesitated ever-so-slightly, and then answered, "It should". Note his apparently carefully selected choice of words. I did. So did some other armorers.
I've also seen some instances where one or another full-size mag exhibited erratic feeding in a compact/subcompact.
Just depends. The caliber (recoil force and resulting slide velocity), as well as the age and condition of the springs in the larger mag, can also be factors to consider.
Me? I check and and verify. Often. I won't use larger mags in smaller pistols if anything other than optimal feeding & functioning is always observed. Other folks may suit themselves.
Presuming the ability to reload ... or identify a magazine-related problem, resolve it and load the weapon to continue normal operation ... and a reasonable expectation of how quickly these things ought to be done by someone is probably going to vary fairly widely. After all, there's the sporting/competition folks, the professionally armed folks (who may, or may not, be "firearms enthusiasts") and the privately armed folks (who may have any variety of interest in such skills, let alone training to learn them and effectively practicing to maintain them).
Which "standard" are you going to adopt and adhere to when it comes to carrying a pistol as a dedicated defensive weapon?
While I've formed some ideas after having watched a lot of folks do such things on training, practice & qual ranges over the years, to varying degrees of skill, the actual circumstances, awareness and mindset which can occur during an actual "real life" situation may well evoke a response other than anything previously experienced in training, or expected, for that matter.
An example ...
I know of a LE shooting where a fellow was using a popular, well respected and admired plastic framed .45 pistol, loaded with one of the well respected LE-Only lines of hollowpoint ammunition. Unfortunately, as soon as the fellow encountered an armed suspect who fired a weapon, and he brought his own weapon into use, he experienced some feeding stoppages which required time to resolve. Fortunately, another cop was present who was able to engage the armed suspect (hitting the suspect several times), during which time the cop with the malfunctioning .45 was able to avoid getting shot and finally get his gun functioning again.
How qucikly is "quick enough" to resolve a stoppage or other malfunction? Dunno. I can come up with some "acceptable time limits" for training & qual situations, but I can't presume to suggest whether those "times" will prove fast enough for any particular situation or set of circumstances which might befall someone outside the range environment.
I can suggest, however, that having an understanding of how to identify and resolve such problems might be more practical, and perhaps even critical to know at some future time, than ignoring the possibility and not learning how to deal with such things under the watchful eye of an experienced instructor.
If the successful and effective resolution to a magazine-related problem/stoppage requires the availability of another magazine, and someone doesn't have one on them at the time it's necessary, then even having the knowledge and skill might become a moot point.
(Which is one of the reasons I stopped the car and went back into the house to retrieve my spare magazine the other day.
)Now, how fast is fast enough? Well, if you ever arrive at a definitive answer ... other than "fast enough for whatever the situation may be" ... let us know. I'll pass it along to the other instructors and the folks I train.
It probably won't matter to anyone who doesn't carry a spare magazine, though. Not in time, anyway, should they find themselves in that sort of situation.
Oh yeah, I skipped the part of the original question regarding whether to carry a "full-size compact mag". I've done both. Mostly I've simply carried the stock mags for whatever pistol I was carrying. Depending on the specific model/caliber, and how well it could be expected to function when used with a mag from the next-size-up model, I've sometimes carried a larger spare. Just depends. I can think of the instructor in one of my many armorer classes addressing such a question (which isn't uncommonly asked). He hesitated ever-so-slightly, and then answered, "It should". Note his apparently carefully selected choice of words. I did. So did some other armorers.
I've also seen some instances where one or another full-size mag exhibited erratic feeding in a compact/subcompact.
Just depends. The caliber (recoil force and resulting slide velocity), as well as the age and condition of the springs in the larger mag, can also be factors to consider.
Me? I check and and verify. Often. I won't use larger mags in smaller pistols if anything other than optimal feeding & functioning is always observed. Other folks may suit themselves.
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FIVETWOSEVEN
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When I am wearing my leather thumb break holster, I'm fine without any reloads comfort wise but when I wear my Serpa I have to wear two reloads or its very uncomfortable.
I have had no prior training but yesterday when I was practicing clearing jams with spent casings in the magazine, my XD jammed in a way that I had to rip the mag out and place it back in and I did it under 3 seconds.
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