Carrying a Sword Across the Back

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Anthony

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
572
Hello Everyone,

I'm still somewhat new to swords so please forgive me if I sound like a victim of the movies.

Are there any historical examples of swords being carried across the back either in Western Europe (especially Italy) or in the Far East? Is it a practical carry and drawing method?

If such practical method exists which one do you feel is the best? Is there anyone out there today making a scabbard/rig to carry a sword in this way? If yes, who?

For years I have watched countless actors carry and draw short, medium, and even long swords from scabbards carried across their backs. It never struck me as awkward, but talking with a respected scabbard maker (name withheld for political reasons) who claims it just doesn't work makes me wonder.

Before any of you crack some "closet ninja" jokes it is not my intent to carry one this way for fighting. Rather it stems from a practical need. While talking with a custom scabbard maker about having a unique sheath made to carry both a sword and dagger simultaneously with a method of carrying the rig across the back, he remarked that it was not possible to draw the sword from this position. He was not aware of my reason...which is simple. I don't want my metal/non-sharpened sword, scabbard, and dagger to get all scratched up in my gear bag banging up against my sticks and other equipment on the way to my Filipino Martial Arts (Modern Arnis) class.

Any and all opinions are welcome.

Thank you for the help.

- Anthony
 
anthony,

I've seen pictures of someone with sword carried across back in either "Museum Replicas" catalog or else "Atlanta Cutlery" catalog. A web search should bring up their sites.
For any thing longer than a dagger, it probably would be hard to draw.
One of the troubles with swords is that they are clumsy to carry on your belt and can clang into things. Daggers are somewhat better.
 
Carrying a sword across the back was dishonorable in Japan.

IIRC the theory went your ancestors are represented by your sword, thus you should never turn your back on them. The Daisho (Katana and Wakizashi) were carried at either side of the waist, or both on one side.

Don't know about the other regions though.
 
If transport is the objective...buy a dedicated bag for the sword so it won't get scratched.

If you ever try to draw a long sword with the scabbard on your back...anything much beyond twenty inches or so...you're going to have problems unless your arms are longer than average.


I work in an ER. We had this guy come in who was showing some folks his moves with his sword. He flourished the sword to his left and to his right. He did large figure eights. He reversed the figure eights. He lunged in every direction. He did a large circle above his head. He resheathed the sword full speed in the best movie fashion...he missed the mouth of the scabbard at his right shoulder. The point of the straight blade entered his back at his right shoulder blade (scapula) and travers the right paravertebral muscles. The sword exited the right paravertebrals and went over the guy's spinal column and plunged into his left paravertebral muscles.
 
Anthony, mostly the sword was carried on the back while marching in both the East and the West. My ancestors in England would often lash their swords and spares to their packs or carry them in hand. In the form of Eastern boxing I study, our shortish broadsword can be carried this way, but it is not preferred in a fight.

If you wish to learn more I recommend Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's excellent, Ancient Chinese Weapons--A Martial Artist's Guide (1999). store.yahoo.com/ymaa/anchinweapma.html

Since you are in Dallas, Tejas may I be so bold as to recommend a kwoon of my clan in your area? If you are interested, the form I study puts emphasis upon weaponry fairly early as compared to other styles I have studied.

www.authentickungfu.com, Sifu Steve Cottrell has a tremendous reputation for mantis boxing or wing chun kuen and for weaponry. He is in Fort Worth; however, I am told he now has a facility in Dallas (which may help you because of the alleged horrific traffic).
 
Samurai would carry large swords across the back, mostly giant Tachi swords. These dated mostly from early Samurai periods and had faded from fashion by the 16th Century, but many family heirlooms were still used in battles during this time. I believe that these were drawn long before battle was entered since it was probably impossible to draw them smoothly in one stroke, let alone return them to the scabbard afterwards.
 
Time to watch Seven Samurai again...Toshiro Mifune's "masquerading peasant" character carries an enormous sword aross his back. No speed draw on that thing, for sure.
 
I've wondered about this big sword sheathed across the back stuff, myself.

A big bowie could be used this way...but a major sword? Just doesn't work out on paper.

Not to mention how awkward it would be to resheath the blade from this position. :confused:
 
This is Hollywood nonsense. No nobleman, the only Medieval Europeans carrying swords or allowed to carry a sword, would carry a great sword on his back. It just wasn't done. They were a lot like 19th century cowboys in that they would ride even when it was close enough to walk. Big swords are not conducive to good horsemanship.
Most big swords were only used in tournies and not in battles. Highland Claymores are an exception. Tourney weapons moved on carts like everything else.
 
in Europe, great swordsmen were all infantry. Mounted troops worth anything carried a lance or sword & pistols.

European two-handed swords were carried on the shoulder like a rifle. They weren't sheathed since they weren't all that sharp anyways -it was their weight that did the damage.

The Germans produced the greatest amount of great swordsmen who would be called 'doppelsoldner' -or double-pay-soldier. They were paid twice as much since they were used in the front of the line where they were expected to punch holes in the enemy's formation. Officers and NCOs also carried great-swords as signs of their rank/position -these officers had the title of 'hurenwebel' -whoremaster.

Aside from these, Continental Europeans had few great swordsmen, mostly all were royal bodyguard units. These also carried their two-handers to the front.

btw, noblemen were far & few in Europe. Wars were fought by infantry & men at arms. Anyone above a serf could own & carry swords, and serfs were issued weapons during times of emergency.

woodblock of German mercenary exactly as he would have looked with greatsword:
http://www.landsknecht.com/html/woodcut_16.html
 
Last edited:
The across-the-back sheaths I've seen for large swords (seen a bunch through several years at Highland games) generally only cover part of the blade. They hold a few inches at the tip and a foot or so right at the shoulder. That's enough to hold the blade steadily. To draw, you pull the sword out a few inches to free it from the bottom restraint, and then you can pull it horizontally out from above your shoulder. The more practical option is to take the whole shealth off with the sword still in it and give the blade a half swing to toss the sheath off. It can then be retrieved when you're done fighting.
 
Hi, CWL. We're speaking of two different periods. Mine Medieval, your's Rennaisance. S'ok. In 1530, yes, there may have been armed gentry but not in 1330. A sword cost a ton of money and only the wealthy, read nobility, could afford them. Ditto for armour. During the 14th century, the nobility of England, high noblity, like John of Gaunt(Ed the 3's son) and the Black Prince(Prince of Wales) had nobles with them when they went to war.
Nearly the entire nobility of England went with King Edward III for his campaign leading up to Crecy. And the French had nobility from all over Europe at Crecy and again at Poitiers. They got slaughtered. Crecy wiped out an entire generation of French nobility. I have the numbers of barons, counts and kings around here someplace.
The Crusades, even earlier, were totally about getting the nobility out of Europe so they'd quit their own petty spats. The nobility had two sports. Hunting and warfare.
Your period is much later. Firearms were wide spread and even then, only the wealthy had them.
Ian, no offense, but Highland Games are just that. Games. What you see there is not in anyway historicaly accurate. Not even the skirts the men wear. Nor is the formal dress. That's mostly Victorian in origin. Tartans were not clan related until very much after 'Braveheart' times.
And these discussions are enlightening considering most of the BS one sees on most forums. It's very refreshing to see postings that are intelligent and with good spelling. Thanks guys.
 
A sword cost a ton of money and only the wealthy, read nobility, could afford them. Ditto for armour.
Click to expand...

Mostly true. However, Hans Delbruck in "Medieval Warfare, History of the Art of War, Volume III" mentions a source of weaponry for the peasantry and other less than noble folk: you simply wait for your betters to have a dogfight and then scavenge the field.

Now this wouldn't work if it was largely a battle in place for obvious reasons...the victors would be doing the scavenging. However, when it devolved into a running fight or a pursuit after victory, then the poorer folk would have the chance to do the odd bit of surreptious arming.
 
Sorry Sunray, I don't agree with you. Warfare in Europe wasn't nearly that romantic. Cavalry accounted for a very small percentage of armies in Europe. As usual, the killing & dying was done by the poor grunts. You are generalizing all of European history by using (doubtful) information from the 100-years War. Swords and other armaments weren't limited to the nobility.

Your lists of dead & captured French gentry never included dead French commoners, foot units, mercenaries -simply because they weren't important enough to be recorded.

English Yeomanry & Men-at-arms fought at every battle during the 100-years war. -Certainly weren't noble. They carried whatever blades they could afford, steal, loot. English bow units became popular (though very rare) mercenary units in Europe throughout the entire Medieval-Renaissance periods.

-The English "White Company" was recruited from peasantry/citydwellers.

The Italian crossbowmen that the French used carried swords and personal arms. Italians probably provided the second greatest source of peasant-originated mercenary forces in W. Europe.

Germans provided the majority of mercenaries fighting in every European war, crusade or dispute in Europe until the rise of national armies at end of 17th Cent. German mercenaries were used as early as the conquest of England by Normans.

Vikings weren't all noble and they raided from Europe thru the Middle East.

Ireland was a wild place with well-armed tribals.

Escaped serfs could go into banditry or become mercenaries (mostly the same thing).

Siegecraft was a science of engineers, artillerists, masons, master craftsmen, miners, etc. Not noble professions. More poor commoners climed the ladders & towers than nobles.

The Austrian Holy Roman Emporers used armies recruited from the peasantry and led by as many professional officers. THis was because his nobles refused to contribute feudal levies.

Italian City States, the Hanseatic League, the Cantons of Switzerland, church lands, free-states, Imperial cities, etc. were defended by mercenaries and commoner/militias.

Switzerland came into existence during 1200-1230 when the first cantons of commoners defeated Austrian horse & foot. It was here that a unit of mercenary Swabian 2-handed swordsmen fought to the last man in order to allow the retreat of the defeated Austrians.

The Swiss peasantry sure carried lots of armaments, and they successfully defeated French, Burgundian, Austrian, Italian and their own royals.

In Spain, Christians fought Moors from Dark ages to beginning of Renaissance. El Cid (1040-1099?) led armies against Moslem Moors AND Christians. His forces were mercenaries and commoners.

Crusaders to the Middle East were only led by nobles, their armies were private fighting forces -often recruited on lure of wealth from pillage, rather than religion.

The Crusades fought inside Europe were usually paid for by the Pope and fought using mercenaries. Once again, mostly German mercenaries but also Italian and E. Europeans.

Then, there are the Hungarians, Poles, Muscovites, Military Orders, Mongols/Tartars, Greeks, Armenians, Byzantines, Turks...
 
Last edited:
Anthony,
I have a Cold Steel Grosse Messer, and carry it in a Ravenswood Quick Release Baldrick. This is a great way to carry a "broadsword." The Baldric is a great design for those who wish to keep their hands free. As is mentioned by others, certain cultures, particularly Japan, it is bad form to wear one's blades upon one's back. Everything I own is combat oriented, and I'm certainly no "mall ninja." One must be capable with many weapons and systems of defense/offense, if one is to become a master with any... At fifty-three, I'm still learning, adapting, and working toward a better understanding of the best applications and employment of weapons, both current and ancient. I carry my Cold Steel Imperial Grade Double Edged Katana two different ways. One is through my belt, main blade carried edge upward, or in a Ravenswood Rapier Frog, also with primary edge of my Katana upward. Both ways adequate to bring them into battery quickly. T'would be hard to beat either, if one's foe were at arm's length... As Heinlein is reputed to have said, "There is nothing more comforting, than three feet of cold steel in a dark room..." There may be times in the future where a firearm may not be either available, or prudent. IMHO, a sword, battle axe, war hammer, tomahawk, bowie or Gurkha Kukri, JO fighting staff, or bow and arrows, may be all that is either available, or "proper" for combat, and, I believe, are NEVER, NEVER, out of style... To rely upon firearms alone, is to limit one's strengths and abilities. Survival is enhanced by knowledge and practice...

If you are interested in Ravenswood Leather's Baldrics and Hangers/Frogs, check them out at:

http://www.ravenswoodleather.com/

Regards and Respects,
Carter F. Leffen, oldpaladin, out...
 
ahem oldpaladin,

The Japanese carried swords across the back.

In feudal Japan, you either had the right to wear a sword (or two) or you didn't. Ease of access determined where you carried it.
 
Anthony, I was doing some Taiji Sword this morning and had to look something up and found this quotation from Dr. Yang as well: "In China, the sword was either slung from a belt around the waist or hung on the back with shoulder straps. . . double swords and martial swords (Wu Jian) were ordinarily carried on the back--as well as personal preference." Yang, Jwing-Ming TAIJI SWORD, CLASSICAL YANG STYLE 3 (1999).

Hope this helps.:)
 
ahem oldpaladin,

The Japanese carried swords across the back.

In feudal Japan, you either had the right to wear a sword (or two) or you didn't. Ease of access determined where you carried it.
Click to expand...

It was dishonorable to carry the katana across the back, but one could carry the longer no-dachi across the back, as it didn't have the same significance as the katana.
 
Anthony, winstonsmith, El Tejon, and CWL,

Anthony, I was wrong about the back hanging of the katana. I learned from winstonsmith, El Tejon, and CWL. My apologies, Sir. CFL

winstonsmith, El Tejon, and CWL,

I stand corrected. Mea Culpa. As stated, "I'm still learning, adapting, and working toward a better understanding of the best applications and employment of weapons, both current and ancient." I'm always willing to admit my ignorance/lack of knowledge, and am happy to learn... As to my double-edged CS katana, I must confess to having been "smitten" with the upper edge- which reminded me of the benefits of the Bowie knife. Admittedly, I've not tried to use the back-cut yet, but wonder if it would be applicable in combat? My CS Grosse Messer also has the capability for a back-cut, but I've not prepared it's back-edge for such usage- yet. Do you think such an edge, and technique/tactic would be practical/beneficial to have in one's arsenal of knowledge?

Thanks to all of you for setting me straight on back hanging the katana. I would have deprived another of good information, remained in darkness/ignorance, and also diminished my own versatiltiy... Again, Thanks!

With Humble, But Greatest Respect and Regards,
Carter F. Leffen, oldpaladin, out...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
All you wanted to Know about Swords
Replies
17
Views
963
Marko Kloos
M
P
  • Locked
Saudi executioner's swords
2
Replies
27
Views
4K
Caimlas
C
C
  • Locked
Open Carry of Swords and Sword-Like-Objects
2
Replies
41
Views
4K
Critical J
C
A
  • Locked
Modern Scenarios When a Sword Would Be Preferable to a Firearm
2 3 4 5
Replies
115
Views
6K
Lupinus
L
D
  • Locked
ESEE Junglas - Color me Impressed ( And a bonus! )
Replies
10
Views
2K
Vermonter
V
Back
Top