Carrying concealed knives in Vriginia

[shephard19]

I was browsing some of the weapons laws in Virginia and apparently
blackjacks, brass knuckles and "bowie knives"are completely illegal in Virginia to carry concealed! What knives are Virginia residents allowed to carry concealed without a CCW permit? Would a fixed blade about 4 inches in length be considered a "Bowie knife"? On Wiki it says the specifications of a Bowie knife are 6-24 inches...but we all know how reliable Wiki is. Also are "switchblades" considered to be knives where the blade extendes by pushing a button, is that the main criterion?
Here is a relevant section of the law:

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

 

[W.E.G.]

start here:
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1080445.pdf

 

[CWL]

I don't know how a ruling about butterfly knives would apply here. Since the OP wants to carry a fixed-blade, I think that he runs the danger of satisfying the "dirk or dagger" definition.

Shepard19, you really should consult a criminal defense attorney if you really want to be safe. Just be aware that if you do get caught and convicted for concealed carry of an illegal weapon, it'll probably ruin your chances of purchasing firearms later as well as possibly failing a background check for a job, etc.

 

[glistam]

Shepard19, I should tell you that despite a lot of research I have done into this matter, it is still quite unclear legally speaking if carrying a concealed single-edged fixed blade is legal in VA. It is a complex issue that is a case-by-case matter that considers the character and design of the knife as well as the circumstances of the possession.
The term's "dirk" and "bowie knife" are problematic in that while they have rather obvious meaning to a knife collector, their meaning in legal circles is undefined, vague, and inconsistent. Similarly, "weapon of like kind" is also vague and could cover a rather broad definition.

In Gilliam v. Commonwealth, 2007 the court did at least bother to define these two words, quoting the earlier Richards:

A “dirk” or weapon . . . is any stabbing weapon having two sharp
edges and a point, including daggers, short swords and stilettos. A
“bowie knife” . . . is any stabbing weapon having a single sharp
edge, a dull or serrated flat edge and a point, such as a hunting
knife, a fishing knife or a survivalist’s knife.

This is excellent case to consider as it involved a tanto-like fixed blade found on a man arrested for public drunkenness while loitering outside a Walgreens, and it was ruled to not be a dirk or bowie, but to be a weapon of like kind due to it's martial appearance and the circumstances of the arrest. I highly recommend anyone from VA read it.

Here is the link, it even has photos from the court record:
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0473061.pdf

 

[bikerdoc]

Gistam said,

It is a complex issue that is a case-by-case matter that considers the character and design of the knife as well as the circumstances of the possession.

I agree and that is why a study of case law, regarding guns and knives is essential.

In addition there may be town, city or county ordinances to consider, Richmond and Norfolk, have a reputation for being difficult.

Sorry no real answer here except read, study and ask a lawyer.

 

[ChuteTheMall]

Has this law ever been used against a folding knife?

 

[glistam]

Has this law ever been used against a folding knife?

Far as I know from reading case law and news, no, not at the state level anyway.

 

[hso]

A folding knife wouldn't be subject as long as it wasn't a switchblade.

 

[hso]

As pointed out case law will have to be used to further define whether a knife that you're carrying is one of the prohibited kind. This is not an ideal or comfortable situation since you may not think you're carrying a "bowie" knife or a "switchblade" but that won't automatically prevent you from being treated as if you are. If you're concerned about it then you need to follow the advice to study the case law on knives in VA.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-311

§ 18.2-311. Prohibiting the selling or having in possession blackjacks, etc.

If any person sells or barters, or exhibits for sale or for barter, or gives or furnishes, or causes to be sold, bartered, given or furnished, or has in his possession, or under his control, with the intent of selling, bartering, giving or furnishing, any blackjack, brass or metal knucks, any disc of whatever configuration having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, or like weapons, such person shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. The having in one's possession of any such weapon shall be prima facie evidence, except in the case of a conservator of the peace, of his intent to sell, barter, give or furnish the same.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-271; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1985, c. 394; 1988, c. 359.)

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.

Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:

1. Any person while in his own place of business;

2. Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;

3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;

4. Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;

5. Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;

6. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;

 

[DKA]

Not sure about Virginia, but in NC, a CCHP is for handguns only.

 

[ChaoSS]

Forget about the Bowie knife thing, the dirk thing is generally considered pretty inclusive. If you are carrying a fixed blade knife, you are carrying a dirk.

 

[Maelstrom]

Assuming, of course, that the knife has two edges. A dirk is just a large dagger.

 

[hso]

Most any carry permit that has the word "handgun" in it won't include any other weapon in the permission to carry. Concealed weapon permits may.

Any fixed blade is not a dirk or dagger. A knife requires two edges to meet the definition. That doesn't mean that an LEO won't arrest you for carrying a deadly weapon if any type of knife is found on you and you'll have to work to get the charges dismissed or fight it all the way to a jury. That's where we get back to the importance of case law where a clear definition in the state weapons laws doesn't exist.

 

[shockwave]

This is why the Florida license rocks:

Q. What kinds of weapons are included in the concealed weapons law?

A. The Jack Hagler Self-defense Act defines concealed weapons or firearms as follows: handguns, electronic weapons or devices, tear gas guns, knives and billies. The information provided emphasizes handguns, because they are one of the most commonly used weapons for self-defense.

 

[ChaoSS]

I don't know about the whole dirk thing. I know that California law has zero bearing on this case, but let's look at the definitions in CA law:

As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.

Nothing about a double blade.

I just looked up the law in your state, a more ambiguous law regarding knives I have not read in awhile. Texas is good for that too, with their bowie knife restrictions. I can offer you no case law for this, but unless you find case law that gives you more guidance I would suggest you stick on the safe side of things and don't conceal any fixed blade knives.

 

[hso]

ChaoSS.


You'll find that other states do offer definitions for dirks or daggers as double edged. Your advice to default to what case law establishes is spot on.

 

[ChaoSS]

I'm sure they do. Wikipedia says that both dirks and daggers are double edged blades.

I don't have access to case law in his state though, so I would stay away from concealing any fixed blade knife until something can be found.

I'd love to have some sort of searchable database of case law. It would make things so much easier.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

ChaoSS I carry a fix blade everyday and everywhere I go. Never have a problem. But the blade is under 4'' inches.

 

[LeontheProfessional]

I carry a folder with a 3in blade and have never had a problem.

 

[hso]

Findlaw and lexisone.com/lx1/caselaw/freecaselaw allows you to search case law in various states.

In TN a dirk or dagger is double edged.

In VA case law establishes the same and has dismissed or overturned convictions to the contrary.

The Commonwealth contended at trial that the knife was a dirk or a weapon of like kind. In Richards v. Commonwealth, 18 Va. App. 242, 246 n.2, 443 S.E.2d 177, 179 n.2 (1994), we defined a dirk as "any stabbing weapon, having two sharp edges and a point, including daggers, short swords, and [*3] stilettos."

 

[Izzy77]

I have not had a problem wearing my knife out in the OPEN in VA.

I CCW'd the pistola, and the Finnish Puko was worn out...

I once saw a certain citizen of VA with dark pigmentation walk into a police station with his Kabar strapped on....this was a man who knew the law!

I wonder if a CS voyager would be considered a "bowie" in the commonwealth? :0

Richmond and Norfolk, have a reputation for being difficult.

you got that right...