Knife Laws (VA)

[Praxidike]

I'd like some opinions on the legality of carrying a concealed fixed blade (BK14) in my state of VA. In VA, we ONLY have a concealed handgun permit that ONLY covers guns and NOT any other weapons such as knives. As a side note, I do have a valid gun permit, so I can legally conceal carry a gun, but not a razor or nunchakus. Also in VA, anyone who is not a felon can legally open carry a gun and any knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, etc, but there are restriction on conceal carry.

Here is the state code regarding knives:

§ 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons; exceptions; penalty.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of clause (i) regarding a handgun, that a person had been issued, at the time of the offense, a valid concealed handgun permit.

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

I've been told that my bk14 could be considered a "dirt" or a "bowie knife", but I found this (Wayne Thompson v. Commonwealth) 2009 case law regarding a convicted felon conceal carrying a butterfly knife. In it, Mr Thompson's (a convicted felon) conviction was vacated and dismissed. His butterfly knife was considered a dirt or dirt like, but it was found that, unlike a dirt or sword, his knife didn't have 2 sharp cutting edges, a hilt, and it was not designed for thrusting, so it was not "like" a dirt.

Upon comparing its physical
characteristics to those of either a dagger or a sword, both of
which are included in the definition of a dirk, it is obvious, however,
that Thompson's butterfly knife is not substantially similar to
a dirk. While the butterfly knife's blade is four inches long
and has a sharp point at the end of the blade, it contains only
one sharp edge instead of two and has no protective guard
between the blade and the handle. Without two sharp edges and a
protective guard, we conclude that the butterfly knife is not
designed for stabbing purposes like a dagger, but rather for
cutting purposes.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1080445.pdf

On the other hand, a sword's blade may be used for cutting
or thrusting. However, one important feature of a sword is for
the blade to be set in a hilt. Thompson's butterfly knife does
not have a hilt. Instead, it is more akin to a pocketknife, in
that the blade is movable from its handle, and it folds into
itself.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1080445.pdf

It also seems as the VA Supreme court looked at the literal definition and characteristics that define a type of knife even going so far as to quote Webster's dictionary. Well here is webster's dictionary's ans dictionary.com's definition of a bowie knife:

a stout single-edged hunting knife with part of the back edge curved concavely to a point and sharpened.
a stout hunting knife with a short hilt and a guard for the hand
a heavy sheath knife having a long, single-edged blade.

My knife isn't a butterfly knife and the blade isn't "removable from it's handle", but it also does not have the characteristics of a stabbing (sword like) knife or a bowie. The bk14 does not have the important disusing features such as 2 sharp cutting edges or a hilt like a dirt, sword, or a bowie has. The bk14 is designed and marketed for cutting purposes. I believe that should it ever become an issue with me EDC carrying my knife under my shirt as a neck knife, the case law would vindicate me. Any thoughts?

 

[PistolPete45]

I have taken to carrying a rescue knife . Not exactly my first choice for SD but will do what needs to be done if needed .. The police report and possible court appearance exhibit A might be the knife the intended victim used to stop a robbery.. A rescue knife similar to the knife carried by LE and EMT .. Looks better then the fighting knife fantasy knife or martial arts weapon .. Something to conceder huh .

 

[hso]

Nothing in the state law specifically prohibits carry a fixed blade as long as it isn't a "any dirk, bowie knife, ... machete, razor" or "like kind".

Whether an officer or court would consider a BK14 to be any of these is nothing we can predict since you yourself saw case law reversing convictions using the "like kind" argument. The case law helps, but nothing ensures you won't be arrested and have to defend yourself in court.

 

[Praxidike]

I have taken to carrying a rescue knife . Not exactly my first choice for SD but will do what needs to be done if needed .. The police report and possible court appearance exhibit A might be the knife the intended victim used to stop a robbery.. A rescue knife similar to the knife carried by LE and EMT .. Looks better then the fighting knife fantasy knife or martial arts weapon .. Something to conceder huh .

I agree with you. I don't think that my eskabar looks anything like a scary fighting knife though, but when I just asked this question on a police forum, they wanted to call my knife a bowie, dart, and a dagger which even with my limited knowledge of knives, I know it is clearly not.

 

[Praxidike]

Nothing in the state law specifically prohibits carry a fixed blade as long as it isn't a "any dirk, bowie knife, ... machete, razor" or "like kind".

Whether an officer or court would consider a BK14 to be any of these is nothing we can predict since you yourself saw case law reversing convictions using the "like kind" argument. The case law helps, but nothing ensures you won't be arrested and have to defend yourself in court.

That is what I was thinking hso. I may risk being arrested, but it would not go to far in court especially with the case law and the fact I can legally conceal carry a firearm. I was thinking of carrying folded up copy of the case law and statue in my wallet right next to my carry permit being that most cops don't follow anything past the initial codes or perceptions.

 

[9mmforMe]

Is the risk worth possible prosecution? Just curious what your thoughts are.

 

[Praxidike]

Is the risk worth possible prosecution? Just curious what your thoughts are.

If it's legal for me to do so, then yes. The state of Virginia has a court website where you can pay fines, get court and law/code information, and also search published and unpublished case law (http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/). Other than the case I cited, there have been several other where felons were charged with carrying a concealed weapon "survival knife", "box cutter", and a "large steak knife." In all of these cases, the conviction was over turned. With all of the multiple recent published case law, I feel pretty confident in the legality of my knife.

 

[chrisb507]

As a VA resident familiar with our state's odd laws, I guess I'd ask: Why not carry a folder?

 

[tomrkba]

hidden from common observation

These are the key words. You may openly carry a Bowie knife or dirk. Stick it on your belt and go about your day.

The Kabar BK14 is not a dirk or bowie. It has only a 3 1/4" blade and does not have the classic Bowie point. If you are concerned about it, make sure part of it is visible. Ths counts as OC. Personally, I would not worry about carrying the BK14 concealed. As mentioned previously, you could carry a folder, such as a Benchmade with Axis lock.

<deleted>

 

[Praxidike]

As a VA resident familiar with our state's odd laws, I guess I'd ask: Why not carry a folder?

Because I would prefer to carry and use the fixed blade I spent my money on, but I sometimes carry both. Plus, if you go to the Virginia Court Website and read the multiple published and unpublished VA Court of Appeals and VA Supreme Court rulings aka Opinions, you'll see a recurring theme all involving convicted felons who have carried all kinds of concealed knives, but have had their cases overturned. In my research, I have not seen even one case were a nonfelon has been charged with 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons with regards to knives.

§ 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons; exceptions; penalty.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of clause (i) regarding a handgun, that a person had been issued, at the time of the offense, a valid concealed handgun permit.

As far as knives are concerned and in accordance to the current aforementioned code and case law, in order to be found guilty 18.2-308, 3 test must be passed.

The first test is if the knife in question is explicitly listed as one of the forbidden knives in 18.2-308, i.e., is the knife an actual dirk, bowie knife, switchblade, ballistic knife, machete, etc.... If it is, then you will be found guilty and no other test need to be done. If it is not, precede to test #2.

The second test will be is the knife in question "designed for fighting purposes" or "commonly understood
to be a 'weapon.' " If the answer is no, e.g., you concealed a steak knife, you aren't guilty of 18.2-308 and no other test need to be done, but if the answer is yes, e.g., you're carrying a butterfly knife or a Ka-Bar TDI, then a third test needs to be done. As a side note, the courts have held that 18.2-308 does not deal with or care about the intent or circumstances in which you are carrying said weapon just as long as it is not a forbidden weapon or a weapon of like kind to a forbidden weapon, so even if you're carrying a steak knife for self defense or offense, you are still NOT guilty of 18.2-308 because a steak knife is not listed as a forbidden knife AND it is not "designed for fighting purposes" or "commonly understood to be a weapon" AND it is not a "weapon of like kind" to any of the weapons mentioned in 18.2-308.

The final test is if the weapon is a "weapon of like kind" compared to a dirk, bowie knife, switchblade, ballistic knife, machete? Sense most fixed blade knives are compared to dirks and bowie knives, I'll address those.

In defining a dirk, all current cases have cited the 1994 Richards v. Commonwealth case were a dirk is defined as:

2. The terms "dirk" and "bowie knife" are not defined by the statute, nor has any appellate decision in this Commonwealth clarified the difference. We assume that the two terms have their usual meaning. A "dirk" or weapon of like kind is any stabbing weapon having two sharp edges and a point, including daggers, short survivalist's knife.....

A “bowie knife” is “ ‘a large hunting knife adapted [especially] for knife-fighting’ ” with a “ ‘10 to 15 inch [ ] long’ ” blade.

Without quoting more cases and going into more detail, concealed fixed blades are legal in VA, BUT I would be very cautious about carrying a "tactical", hunting, or survival knife, or any multi sharp edged knife, or any knife with a protective hand guard (like swords and bowie knives have) that can keep your hand from slipping onto the blade when stabbing because people who have owned fixed blades with those features have been found guilty.

For example, the convicted felon found concealing the knife pictured below was found guilty mostly because of the hand guard and blade length.



The felon found carry the following knife narrowly escaped a conviction by receive the majority decision while still having 3 judges dissenting. The majority claimed it wasn't of like kind to a dirk because it didn't have a protective hand guard and wasn't a long knife, but the 3 dissenting judges claimed it was of like kind because it was designed for stabbing, had 2 sharp edges, and had a pseudo hand guard by way of the choil...

 

[lemaymiami]

I took a quick read through the cited Virginia statute and noted that it reminded me of the similar statute I worked under here in Florida... Archaic is the best description when they're speaking about dirks, etc. The language on nunchakus, shuriken, etc. was most probably added years later without making any attempt to revise the original statute.

As a practical matter on the street most cops that I worked with used this kind of statute only when they had to. Most believed to be in violation were warned and released - anyone believed to be "up to no good" got the full ride.... No, that was not an ideal response but you use what's available. Here in Florida in my era (1973- 1995) getting a conviction on this kind of charge was so random you might have been better off rolling the dice in each case.

The problem for the ordinary citizen is that these days any weapons conviction (even a misdemeanor) might have such negative consequences down the road that I'd want to err on the side of caution, period. Me, I'd like to spend the rest of my life staying out of courtrooms period -since I rarely ever saw justice there (justice was purely incidental to everything else going on in every courtroom I was ever in.....).

By the way, a few years ago, the advice I've just given was exactly what I told my son as he reached "that age" when going out into the world.... Still pretty good advice.

 

[CaliCoastie]

my question is it worth the cost of going to court if your stoped, charged, and have to defend it? your time, and money that is going to be needed.
It seems to me your trying to convence us that its fine. youve done the leg work, your life, you make your call. for me "weapon of like kind" seems like a catch all for any knive they want to presue.

 

[40-82]

I also live in Virginia, and my take on the law is to avoid carrying any knife with both edges sharpened, or anything of a Bowie-pattern. The language is archaic 19th century designed to disarm poor immigrants. I think you could carry most fixed-bladed hunting knives without much trouble. The unfortunate truth is that faced with the wrong law enforcement officer taking you to the wrong court, and you could lose with almost any knife, but you'd win on appeal. So here's the conundrum: do you go without the blade that could save your life to avoid the unlikely but possible event that a law enforcement officer will view your knife or any knife as a violation of the law?

It does make me feel better that your research do not turn up incidents of citizens without criminal records being charged under the law.

 

[Praxidike]

I also live in Virginia, and my take on the law is to avoid carrying any knife with both edges sharpened, or anything of a Bowie-pattern. The language is archaic 19th century designed to disarm poor immigrants. I think you could carry most fixed-bladed hunting knives without much trouble. The unfortunate truth is that faced with the wrong law enforcement officer taking you to the wrong court, and you could lose with almost any knife, but you'd win on appeal. So here's the conundrum: do you go without the blade that could save your life to avoid the unlikely but possible event that a law enforcement officer will view your knife or any knife as a violation of the law?

It does make me feel better that your research do not turn up incidents of citizens without criminal records being charged under the law.

You're right. It all depends on the officer, and it seems that the only time that they pile on this charge is when someone is a felon or has a knife on them while committing a crime. Everyone seems to think that folders are immune and I've only been talking about fixed knives, but I've equally have read cases were people who were carrying every day 3 inches folders in their pocket who were charged with carrying a dirk, but the case was thrown out on appeal. In this case where a man who had a regular steak knife in his car was charged by an officer with carrying concealed weapon (It was later thrown out on appeal).

The trial judge observed the knife and found that it
appeared to be an ordinary kitchen steak knife. The knife, which
was introduced into evidence, in fact has the appearance and
characteristics of an ordinary household steak knife. We hold,
therefore, that the evidence was insufficient to support the
conviction. Accordingly, we reverse the conviction and dismiss
the charge.
Reversed and dismissed.

I googled for the answer to this question before I posted here, but the answers I found didn't go into much detail. Basically you'll risk being charged depending on the cop, but it more than likely will not stick. For me, a person without a criminal record, I feel confident that I'll be okay as long as I avoid certain features and certain knives. If I lived in a high crime area or if I had a police record, the risk of being hassled may increase. Everyone has to decide for themselves...

 

[9mmforMe]

Looks like one of the moderators erased my simple answer of "ok" to the OPs response to my question about risk. I'll put in a couple more words for the mod who erased so he wont feel compelled to alter a perfectly appropriate response.

ok---meaning I accept your response to my query and I'm not really interested in pursuing this matter further since the OP stands behind his conviction strongly.

Better?