Carrying/engaging threats in church

[Jordan]

I and another gentleman are very probably the only ones carrying at our good sized church (despite Alaska's very liberal CCW law). We've decided that since we have each accepted the responsibility of carrying we owe it to ourselve and to the congregation to think a little about it.

I'm looking for ideas here. Things like knowing the building layout (what's on the other side of that wall? Is that room generally occupied? Shooting from a squat to minimize hitting innocents.

Also, what kind of deadly force scenarios might develop in a situation like this? Historically, like that situation recently in CO. Hostage? Random killer guy?

**UNDERSTAND** I'm not thinking about this because I have some sick or wierd urge to be a hero. I'm not "chomping at the bit" to use deadly force. NO. To the contrary, if I'm going to carry (of course I am) I'd be remiss, irresponsible to give these possibilities no prior consideration. Please don't misconstrue my inquiry.

Thank you.
Kind regards, Josh

 

[Tribal]

To my mind, the most "likely" threat would be an angry ex-husband (or psycho ex-girlfriend) trying to take his wife or kids. A distant, but far more publicized, second would be a nutcase attacker. Both threats are seriously unlikely.

Does your minister know you carry? If you think he'd be sympathetic, he'd be an invaluable resource.

To my mind, you've got two concerns working against each other: the importance of concealment and the need for a man-stopping weapon. I would say that ease of access is a somewhat secondary concern unless you personally are the one being attacked (by this I mean ankle carry, for instance, might be okay).

You don't want to get made. I don't know how your co-congregants feel about guns, but you don't need someone screaming "GUN!" in the middle of the sermon! If you're in a huggy denomination, that adds to your problems a lot.

Here are my top three ideas:
1. Simple and easy: Kahr PM-series IWB covered by tucked-in shirt and sportcoat. The problem would be hugs. Ankle-carry would solve this, but if your church uses kneelers then you might accidentally show.
2. If you wear glasses, how about a revolver shielded by part of an eyeglass case in your wallet pocket of a jacket?
3. It's common in a lot of denominations to bring your Bible with you, often in a zippered case. I'm going to get blasted for saying this, but hollow out a Bible and put something significant like a 1911 in there. Don't open it, and don't leave it lying around.

 

[Jordan]

Thanks for your thoughts, Tribal. Luckily this isn't a huggy type church. While I'd like for the minister to know I'm not sure how to broach the subject without coming off wrong. I'm able to conceal a mid-size auto and really don't worry about getting made considering the crowd.. it is rural'ish Alaska afterall--
Thanks again!
Josh

 

[btg3]

What's more important to you: RKBA or your relationship with your pastor and church?

What if an incident occured, regardless of outcome, that revealed to your pastor that you CC at church? Is is better that you tell him first or that he find out later? If he objects, are you willing to submit to his authority as your pastor, or will you be stiff-necked and stand on the 2nd Amendment rather than abide by Scripture?

CC law in Alaska requires that: When entering the residence of another person, one must notify the resident that they are carrying a concealed handgun. Might your pastor reasonably expected this courtesy even if not specifically required by law?

If you were the pastor, with responsibility for the church, would you want to know if there were CC'ers available to help with security?
----
Okay, enough of my questions. Just hope they are food for thought. I am on the security team at my church (conservative Christian). We take security seriously especially after receiving threats (restraining orders were issued where perps are known). Any pastor today can not ignore security and fulfill his duties. I would think your pastor would be delighted that you are also concerned and that you can work together for the good of your congregation. It may or may not involve CC. First things first, and all that.

 

[ARKIESTEEL]

We have off duty cops that guard the kids area of our church. You can only check out your kid if you are on the list. I am not sure but I think we also have many other off duty cops that attend and I am pretty sure most of them carry. The ones with the kids keep their pistols out in the open. At first I was a little freaked out by walking in church and seeing so many guns, but after a few times of seeing this I was glad they was in the area my child attends.

Only Reason I was somewhat freaked out as I never really thought of church as being a place of danger, but anymore all places can become killing zones.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Only Reason I was somewhat freaked out as I never really thought of church as being a place of danger

How far we've come. The reason old Cathedrals often look "fortresslike" is because they were designed to be the place folks would fort-up at in times of danger. Now most churches have just become another "target rich environment" <sigh>.

As to the O/P's initial tactics question I'll make my often repeated statement. If there is a badguy you must ALWAYS assume that there is more than one and act accordingly.

 

[easyg]

it is rural'ish Alaska afterall--

I realize that no place is immune from a violent attack, but is there truely reason for concern here?
I don't know the violent crime rate where you live, but I'm thinking a rural Alaskan city would not be especially prone to deranged gunmen shooting up a church.
I'm all for guns, the 2nd Amendment, and personal carry, but I think that you would be okay with leaving your pistol in your car for a couple of hours one day a week.

 

[LT1coupe]

I carry concealed & unknown by others. Many organizations have to say no for liability reasons, not that they enforce it, they just can't or won't grant permission. In S. Texas, if an old farm truck happens to backfire as church is letting out, look around & how many people are reaching in purses, boots, and pockets. I like the idea of the uniformed police checking the kids in & out. Safety for the kids & some positive exposure to the men in blue.

 

[btg3]

Eagle River is not exactly rural having a population of about 30,000 and being part of the Anchorage municipality with over 1/4 million folks.

Churches, schools, etc that have a check out procedure when children leave the premises are complying with law. I think if you allow a child to leave with someone who is not approved in advance, there can be substantial penalties or closure.

 

[MakAttak]

It's common in a lot of denominations to bring your Bible with you, often in a zippered case. I'm going to get blasted for saying this, but hollow out a Bible and put something significant like a 1911 in there. Don't open it, and don't leave it lying around.

Well, I respect the bible, but (like guns) it has no magical powers in and of itself.

However, since I also hate wasting money and destroying a perfectly good bible, there are a lot of zippered bible covers that could have a nice CCW concealed within them instead of a bible. You can decide how best to work the concealment and accessability issue.

 

[Brett Byers AKA Slow]

I pastor in a community about the same size near an area of the same size of Anchorage but at a small church. I pack every Sunday and practice often. I have carried snub in .357, .45 Gov't 1911 and Kel-tec .32. Churches are soft targets and Meth. is a real problem here. Recently, a member told me that she was afraid to come to our church because her ex-husband had threatened to kill her and she was concerned he would come there to get her and others might be hurt (their separation had nothing to do with drugs or alcohol). I wish I could say it's getting friendlier in the world but it's not! A Sports coat conceals any handgun that I own and if I'm not wearing a coat the .32 is in my pocket. A zip up Bible case is also a good choice just don't leave it on the pew or chair (most have a carry handle).

 

[DarkSoldier]

To easyg,

Respectfully, I have to disagree. Based on my life experience anytime you can carry, you should carry. And for me, that's pretty much 24/7 365.

 

[Jordan]

"Eagle River is not exactly rural having a population of about 30,000 and being part of the Anchorage municipality with over 1/4 million folks. "

Who said I attend a church in EagRiv? I drive an hour north of here to church. It's rural'ish in every sense of the word.

Thanks to all replies. Some good thoughts.

Kind regards, Josh

 

[Tribal]

My thinking regarding the hollowed-out Bible is that it might make it a little more realistic. Glue the back pages together as a "case" for the pistol, but leave the front ones free. Next time the sermon talks about Genesis or Exodus, make a show of following along (yes, this takes some chutzpah). This only works for some Protestant/Evangelical denominations, though. If you're like Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic then you're out of luck for the carry-your-own-Bible method (and the ankle method because of the kneelers), but as was mentioned above, a sportcoat should conceal just about anything IWB or in a shoulder holster.

If concealment isn't a major issue, carry the gun you're most comfortable shooting under stress (I'm also a fan of "scary-looking" guns on the theory that just maybe they looks alone will scare the bad guy). Again, I think your biggest threat is likely to be a scumbag ex-husband if around service time, although thieves might be possible during the rest of the week. Your best bet is probably to be bigger than the other guy, and preferable to have a couple other guys with you who can simply manhandle the situation.

If I were to carry at church (I go to a church that uses a liturgy and kneelers), I'd probably go with wallet-pocket-of-sportcoat carry of something like a P-3AT if I thought there could be any chance that I'd get made and it would alarm others. Maybe ankle carry of a black gun in a black holster if wearing black socks or IWB/SOB if wearing a jacket, but that'd still be iffy.

Actually, my best idea would be to re-sew a dress shirt so that the second and third buttons from the top are actually decorative and the connection is made by magnet so that I could wear a 5.11 holster t-shirt underneath. That's what I'd want in an office, too.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Consider chipping in on a pair of two-way radios: one for each of you. Family Radio Service/GRMS systems are widely available at extremely low prices. Find a clear channel that's legal without a license, both of you set it to that channel, and both of you keep the radio on while you're in church.

Buy another pair, set each to that very same channel, and give one to the minister and the other to someone else who is reliable and alert.

These things are really inexpensive and just about any of them should work well within your church environment. You might want to look for a model with a "silent" paging feature, which would cut out any possibility of random chatter.

Communication and coordination are vital in a potentially dangerous situation. They're also vital to avoid hurting innocents.

 

[BothellBob]

Jordan,
If this is rather rural Alaska, I might be more concerned with a bear walking in an open door than two legged asps, but that does not negate your concern. The church I frequent is definitely left coast liberal, and I will not even consider discussing my carry with anyone. Fortunately my wife understands what I am doing. I opt for a mouse gun in a pocket holster or a small 38 revolver in a coat pocket. My clothes are so full of pocket knives, flashlights, notepads, cell phones, glasses case, etc. that an extra lump is never noticed.
Luke 22:36
-BothellBob

 

[btg3]

Who said I attend a church in EagRiv? I drive an hour north of here to church. It's rural'ish in every sense of the word.

Apologies. I missed the prior rural'ish reference.

I think at this point, we'd all be interested in knowing what you think you'll actually do at this point, as well as how is works out in the near future.

+1 on the radios. We have security folks inside and outside the building during services and radios are essential.

 

[btg3]

FWIW, hope it's not a Methodist church...

The United Methodist Church calls "upon all governments of the world in which there is a United Methodist presence to establish national bans on ownership by the general public of handguns, assault weapons, automatic weapon conversion kits, and weapons that cannot be detected by traditionally used metal-detection devices."

A separate declaration, in both its title and content, declares the "Church Is a Weapon-Free Zone"
http://archives.umc.org/umns/backgr...88998D49-8C2E-4979-82FC-EBC1AFDBF859}&mid=905

A significant total reduction in the numbers of guns in our communities is our goal in ministry.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...ethodist+gun+control&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

------------
By contrast, there is a pastor in Willow, of another denomination, who knows his members CC and and is very accepting of the fact.

 

[ZeSpectre]

The United Methodist Church calls "upon all governments of the world in which there is a United Methodist presence to establish national bans on ownership by the general public of handguns, assault weapons, automatic weapon conversion kits, and weapons that cannot be detected by traditionally used metal-detection devices."

I was raised Methodist and can clearly remember the church holding a firm "personal responsibility" stance up until the "eastern conference" of 1993 when suddenly things started to go all "pacifistic". I see the trend has continued in my absence.

Disappointing but not especially surprising.

 

[Evocatii]

Jordan,

Your original post brings about some very important questions that every church going concealed carrier should give consideration. It is sad to say, but even a House of Worship can fall victim, and perhaps even specifically targeted by those wanting to do harm. My wife has an old friend that has attended services on several occasions at the YWAM base that was attacked in Colorado. It all hit a little close to home, especially with us living relatively close to the recently attacked locations. Just reinforcement to what you had spoken of earlier. It is wise to be aware of your surroundings.

 

[Quoheleth]

A pastor's thoughts...

If you were the pastor, with responsibility for the church, would you want to know if there were CC'ers available to help with security?

I'm the pastor of a growing congregation in the greater Houston metro area. Although "rural" by definition based on population, we're located on a high-traffic highway. Lots of people use our parking lot for turn-arounds and "other" activities.

After the Colorado shootings, my wife finally gave in to me getting a CCW. As to what I'll carry, still working on that: gotta get the class done first. I have an SP101, but that's a little big for Sunday carry. Might look into either a Kel-Tek or Taurus PT111 and go ankle holster or tuckable IWB. As I wear full vestments for Sunday services, I'm thinking ankle would be better than having to call a "Time out" so I can dig through cassock & surplice to get to a pistol, and then say "Time in." Don't think that would work.

Personally, it would be nice to know if a couple of my members carry, "just in case." I know a couple do have CCLs, but keep it in their vehicles. Lotta good that would do if the BGs get inside first. Although, if I can get out of the building, I at least know whose truck to break into! I have a member who's an HPD officer, but even he doesn't carry in church. Then again, I have a few members I would have to hope and pray aren't licensed ~ scary thoughts!!!

My 2 cents...if you can legally carry, I don't care, just keep it covered/hidden/stashed and do not advertise it in any way, shape or form. If you do, I'll politely ask that it not happen again (at least, the advertisement) because it is a distraction from public worship which is why people come to church in the 1st place. Besides, I don't want our church to become a 30-06 designated place, but if too many problems occurred, I could see our congregational assembly make that designation - libs are even in congregations of conservative theology.

Q

 

[btg3]

Quoheleth , enjoyed reading your post from a pastor's perspective, not that all would be the same, but good comments nevertheless.

You are to be commended for honoring your wife's wishes regarding CC to this point. Glad she has reconsidered and hope perhaps that she may one day get a CCW herself.

Best of luck as you work out a suitable carry rig. May you never need it.

 

[Quoheleth]

btg3, thanks for the words.

Regarding my sweetheart, she's not exactly "anti-gun," but she's certainly not "pro-gun." The fact she agreed to the CCL is, in part, a trade: she wants to go back to school for her Masters degree because it's something she really wants to do. I said that's reasonable enough; why can't I take a weekend class that I really want to do and could save my life (or hers)? Then, after the CO shootings, she OKed it. I would be happy if she would just go plinking with me at the range! I've got several .22s and can really down-load some .38s to shoot out of my GP161 or 3" SP101. It shouldn't be an unpleasant experience...if I can just get her out there with me.

May you never need it.

Amen, my friend. Amen.

Q

 

[Mtnvalley]

The United Methodist Church calls "upon all governments of the world in which there is a United Methodist presence to establish national bans on ownership by the general public of handguns, assault weapons, automatic weapon conversion kits, and weapons that cannot be detected by traditionally used metal-detection devices."

And the Board of Church and Society of the Methodist Church really hammered their stance home when they stated that "it is a woman's Christian duty to submit to rape, rather than do anything which might imperil the rapist's life". 'nuff said.

Back on-topic: our somewhat large (700-800 most services, 1000+ active) church does have a "security" team. From the recruitment brochure: "no experience necessary, be the eyes and ears keeping our congregation safe". No experience needed, no training given, and (by observation) absolutely no physical requirements...here's a radio, keep your eyes open.

Of the ones I know, none are ex-LEO and only a couple have any mil experience (neither was in security or MP fields, though). One of the head guys is about 5'5", 350+...and he works as a house security guard for a local motel, so he's the Pro. (He'd never heard of Surefire or Streamlight lights, though...).

The head pastor is ex-Marine, ex-LEO (detective and firearms instructor), and his wife (also a pastor) made the comment in a class once that their time spent ministering in the Bahamas was odd in that (as U.S. citizens) they couldn't have guns around the house, and she was so used to that.

One of the elders prints like Kinko's every Sunday (I want to tip him off, but haven't). Another had a discussion with me once about how he won't travel without carrying, and I think I've seen him print once or twice. The head pastor's sister is always at service, and she's a former (17 yr.) LEO and firearms instructor. I've never noted the head pastor printing, but given his manner of dress I strongly suspect he's carrying in the pulpit.

My point? With no undue disrespect intended to the Barneys and bluehairs that make up our volunteer security team, their presence doesn't give me much sense of "security" at all, as I know that they have no training and are most likely (in most cases) unarmed. I have no reason to believe that they would run to gunfire should some nutjob open up, nor any reasonable expectation that they would be willing to risk their lives for my wife's safety (nor should they take that risk).

Hence...I take responsibility for our own safety instead of blindly abdicating it because "we have security", and I carry to church- just I carry any other place that it is legal to do so. Wifey carries as well now.

But, given what I know about our church's leadership...I don't ignore the possibility of crossfire.

 

[Tribal]

Don't forget, though, that a wise leader makes use of all his resources. As useful as current and former LEOs and GIs are, sometimes they may not even be the best tool for the job. Hopefully the folks with the radios don't engage themselves if they're not trained and properly armed, but I'll bet nosy old people are pretty decent as noticing when something's wrong. Heck, they can probably go places and do things that would provoke suspicion if done by a 30-year-old with a muscular build and crew cut.

Is there any sort of "code word" the pastor or other leadership could use if notified of a threat by your "radio scouts" to let the CCWs in the congregation know what's up?