Cartridge swelling

[larry syverson]

I have a new Henry Repeating Arms lever action rifle in .357 caliber, 18.5 in barrel. I'm still working on a reload for it and I have a question regarding my latest results. So far I haven't found much with regard to handloading .357 ammor for use in a Henry. If you look at the picture you will see a few spent cartridges. The top example is most prominent in demonstrating what I'm seeing. After firing the cartridge has a small step in it. The short area near the base measures to the orignal cartridge size. The remainder of the cartridge is swollen about 3 mils. Just barely seeable.. transition noted with the arrow. Firing factory Winchester .357 loads do not result in this swelling, just my reload. My question is since this is a lever action rifle some people have told me this is "normal" because of how the lever action seats the cartridge. I'm wondering if the load isn't a little too hot. I'm using a 158 gr. JHP bullet, 7.2 gr. of Hodgdon Universal powder and CCI small pistol magnum primers. The Hodgdon recommendation for this load (.357 pistol) is 5.8 to 6.3 gr. of Universal. It lists the same data for both a handgun OR a rifle. I used nickel plated cartridges in the photo because its easier to see the step but it does the same thing on non plated brass cartridges. Any ideas? I've run a box of these through this gun and there doesn't seem to be any ill affects.

Some people also say Universal isn't a very good choice of powder for this application and that you need a slower powder for use in a rifle due to the barrel length.

One other thing which I thought was a bit odd is when I put alternating handloads and factory Winchester loads and shoot them back to back I find that the report is MUCH different. My handload is much quieter than the factory Winchester load... and I mean a LOT quieter. Due to the powder burn rate??? maybe?

 

[Walkalong]

Not unusual looking. A lot depends on the diameter of the chamber, as well as pressure. 7.2 is obviously over max according to the online data. Why did you choose 7.2?

 

[rcmodel]

Normal.
Your chamber is larger then the resized cases.

So any load with enough pressure to expand the case expands then thin foreward part more then the thicker rear web taper.

And You have pleanty of pressure I betcha!

I'm using a 158 gr. JHP bullet, 7.2 gr. of Hodgdon Universal powder

That right there is 0.9 grains over the listed MAX load on the Hodgdon data with a Hornady 158 grain XTP JHP!!


BTW: Mils are not used to measure things in American handloading.

Most handloaders, myself included, wouldn't know how much a mil was if it jumped up and bit us on the rear end!

Lets use thousandths of an inch, as indicated on our dial calipers & micrometers, and we are all speaking the same language when we measure things!

rc

 

[Walkalong]

I just looked at Speer #13, and it goes to 7.3.

 

[rcmodel]

Well be that as it may.

Any load for the .357 that starts with a 6 or 7 is too fast a powder for best performance in either a rifle or a handgun.

If you want max performance you need to use slow burning Magnum class pistol powder like 2400, H-110, W296, etc.

Your typical loads will start with 13.0, 14.5, 15.0, etc.

rc

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

Most handloaders, myself included, wouldn't know how much a mil was if it jumped up and bit us on the rear end!

Lets use thousandths of an inch, as indicated on our dial calipers & micrometers, and we are all speaking the same language when we measure things!

1 mil = 0.001"

it's the same thing

 

[Walkalong]

Any load for the .357 that starts with a 6 or 7 is too fast a powder for best performance in either a rifle or a handgun

True.

 

[rcmodel]

1 mil = 0.001"
it's the same thing

You will have to try to excuse me.
I'm almost 70 years old, and when I leaned to measure things and write them down?
Thousandths were .001", .002", etc., and were called Thousandths of an inch.
A millionth of an inch was called a micron.
But I always got confused that a mil was a micron.
Maybe thats why I almost flunked out of math?

Plastic sheeting as used in garbage bags and paint drop cloths is often measured in thousands & called mil thickness.
(I figured that out when I bought the cheap garbage bags that always broke!)

Not so much in reloading manuals, digital calipers & micrometers, and the feed & travel dials on my lathe.

Mils, Killameters, and Furlongs per Fortnight were something furrners used when they talked funny on the radio about Horse Races in Yourope!

rc

 

[243winxb]

To Hot-Reduce Load

Hodgdon Universal powder Normal? NO. 9/10 gr over MAXIMUM See the faint line on the bottom case. Thats where the case will seperate after about 3 firing. That my guess. Looks like my 44mag when i was blowing brass heads off in a Marlin 1894.

 

[gamestalker]

If you want a more realistic and better performing load switch powder. 2400 is quite easy to work with and will perform very well. H110 or 296 ( they are the same ) will take you to full house magnum performance without much work up needed. In other words, even minimum starting charges are just about as full house magnum as it gets.
I've loaded exclusively with H110 and 296 for all my .357 and 44 magnum loads for many years and have never had to really worry about how I work up. A couple of things you should know about working with that powder though. Don't reduce charges to below starting data, always use a magnum primer, and use a firm roll crimp to prevent bullet jump. The data spread is short and sweet.

 

[helotaxi]

... you need a slower powder for use in a rifle due to the barrel length.

Nope. Use the same load data and same powders that you would for a handgun. The longer barrel only means that you're going to get more velocity. the .357 benefits better than most any other handgun cartridge from the longer barrel of a carbine.

Standard full-power loads for the .357 use slow pistol powders to begin with. H110/Win 296, AA#9, 2400 and Enforcer are the standards. H110 is usually the hot ticket. That is true whether talking about a revolver or a carbine.

 

[788Ham]

Then why in my 7th Edition of Hornady reload book, does it have a separate section for revolver and rifle loadings and powders? Why would they go to this trouble if all is the same? This regarding .357 mag. cartridges!

 

[FROGO207]

^^^ The rifle action can take more pressure than the revolver can as a general rule. Also the reason for Ruger only loads as they can take a bit more pressure than the older revolvers can.

 

[helotaxi]

For the .357 mag, there are no "Ruger only" loads that I'm aware of. That is a .45 Colt thing.

The reason that they list it in both the rifle and revolver section is that the velocities differ. Greatly. If you only had a rifle and you were doing load development on it, how would you know what to work up to with regard to velocity if you only had handgun velocity data? Look at all the rifle cartridges listed in the handgun section. Compare the load data between the two sections and they almost always vary only in velocity. They use the same powders in both sections and the same powders produce the highest velocities (almost without exception).

 

[Jim Watson]

You have to be careful about hotloading a lever action rifle.
It is easy to get the idea that a rifle just has to be stronger than a revolver, but there are other things at work.
In a revolver, the cartridge is in the cylinder in the frame and there is just enough headspace (rear gauge to a S&W gunsmith) to allow free rotation of the cylinder.
The rifle has some headspace, too, to allow for variations in rim thickness. But it also has a separate locking bolt backing up the breechblock. So you have breechbolt to locking block and locking block to receiver clearances and tolerances.
So a heavy load fired in a lever action rifle can show MORE case stretch than from a revolver.


Thousandths were .001", .002", etc., and were called Thousandths of an inch.
A millionth of an inch was called a micron.
But I always got confused that a mil was a micron.
Maybe thats why I almost flunked out of math?

A thousandth of an inch is a "thou" to a machinist but a "mil" to a operator making foil, sheet, or paper.
I once got a machinist terribly confused when I said I wanted a part "an inch and a tenth." I meant 1.1".
He was accustomed to a "tenth" being a ten thousandth and was fixing to make it 1.0001" until I figured out how to translate.

A micron is a millionth of a METER, a thousandth of a millimeter.
Works out to about 4 hundred thousandths of an inch.

 

[larry syverson]

that's a good question. There was another site called .357 reloading and this is one of the "max" loads recommended. I use it in my Ruger GP-100, but its a little hot form me, so I thought I'd try some in my Henry rifle. My goal is trying to mimic the Winchester factory load, which is perfect in my pistol. Very accurate, not too much recoil etc. This 7.3 load is a little hotter than the Winchester factory load... at least based on the recoil. I'll have a chronograph next week so I'm going to get some data on all my loads.

 

[larry syverson]

A mil is a thousandth of an inch. Bad assumption on my part regarding terminology. Wasn't aware of that.

 

[larry syverson]

I have a pound of H110. I'll give it a try.

 

[larry syverson]

Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't really thought about the loads being the same, just delivering more velocity. I just thought they didn't have a particilar reason other than they didn't have a load so they just duplicated the handgun load. Lesson learned. Thanks for that one, I completely missed the velocity differences.

 

[larry syverson]

Anyone care to comment on why the report is so much different? I still don't understand that. It is remarkably different... the Winchester is a big BANG. the hand load is much quiter and higher pitched. No real bang at all. Its very subdued.

 

[918v]

Winchester factory ammo is loaded with a slow burning powder. Faster burning rate powders are consumed entirely inside the barrel. Slow burning powders are partially consumed. The remaining powder ignites when it hits the free air outside and makes a deep boom.

This is best illustrated by loading Bullseye and Power Pistol in the same cartrige and shooting them side by side. You will hear a pop with the former and boom with the latter.

 

[egg250]

Some have already answered the mail here, but your load is excessive. Hogdon's website lists the MAX load for 158 grain Hornady XTP (JHP) as 6.3 grains of Universal powder. Someone posted that rifle actions are stronger than pistol actions. Case bulging is an indication that your chamber is not withstanding the pressure and will eventually fail.

 

[918v]

Not at all. If that was it, the case would stick. The swelling is normal case expansion, more pronounced because the pressure is over book max, but certainly not anywhere KB range.

 

[243winxb]

Firing factory Winchester .357 loads

why the report is so much different?

My guess is the ball powder Win. uses is slower & a different type. When the gas exits the muzzle it mixes with oxygen. This is like feeding a fire. You get a ball of flames/flash. This adds to the effect of the muzzle blast. Plus the velocity of the factory ammo may be higher then your reload. Good read on powder here > http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/april2002/mccord.htm The Manufacture of Smokeless Powders and their Forensic Analysis: A Brief Review. FBI

 

[788Ham]

Frog,

Thats my contention! I know the rifle can shoot stouter loads, thats why they have the two separate sections! If you read one response up from mine, the guy said you can use the same loads, revolver or rifle, thats why I mentioned about the two sections, one being stouter than the other! It doesn't matter to me if the guy blows his handgun up, but I was just pointing this error out, plain and simple.