CAS 357 Magnum load underperforms - Crimping issue or ??

[fxvr5]

How about a bigger expander? Even the one made for wadcutters:
https://uniquetek.com/product/T1735

Same thing as at photoescape, looks like same picture.

They are made by photo escape. Manufactured by Photo Escape, Inc.

 

[JimGnitecki]

On a progressive press like my Dillon XL750, there is no "expander station". There are:
- (Re)sizing at station 1
- Priming, AND Flaring via Dillon's built-in flaring die, AND powder drop from the Dillon powder measure, at station 2
- Powder check at station 3
- Bullet seating at station 4
- Crimping at station 5

Where would I do what?

For that matter, the fired UNresized cases with their CONSISTENT .3765" to .3775" ODs are a perfect OD "as is", so I don't need any expansion for the fired cases. All I really need to do is prime, flare, and load powder at station 2, powder check at station 3, seat the bullet at station 4, and crimp it at station 5.

I just tried that moments ago, but the current setting of the Redding seating die at Station 4 pushed the bullet completely (!) into the case, so I would need to either readjust that die or simply use the Dillon bullet seating die set to deliver the right COAL, because I know that die simply engages only the tip of a SWC bullet.

Doing this would enable me to use my existing reliable Hornady no. 10408 bullet supply.

Is this crazy or maybe smart?

Jim G

 

[Roverguy]

On a progressive press like my Dillon XL750, there is no "expander station". There are:
- (Re)sizing at station 1
- Priming, AND Flaring via Dillon's built-in flaring die, AND powder drop from the Dillon powder measure, at station 2
- Powder check at station 3
- Bullet seating at station 4
- Crimping at station 5

Where would I do what?

For that matter, the fired UNresized cases with their CONSISTENT .3765" to .3775" ODs are a perfect OD "as is", so I don't need any expansion for the fired cases. All I really need to do is prime, flare, and load powder at station 2, powder check at station 3, seat the bullet at station 4, and crimp it at station 5.

I just tried that moments ago, but the current setting of the Redding seating die at Station 4 pushed the bullet completely (!) into the case, so I would need to either readjust that die or simply use the Dillon bullet seating die set to deliver the right COAL, because I know that die simply engages only the tip of a SWC bullet.

Doing this would enable me to use my existing reliable Hornady no. 10408 bullet supply.

Is this crazy or maybe smart?

Jim G

Smart. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to use that Hornady swaged bullets effectively, especially with those low power loads and your plan above makes sense.

 

[AJC1]

All sizing dies have a tendency to oversize. This is done to make sure even the thinnest case will be sized. The next step of expanding helps normalize internal diameter regardless of neck wall thickness. Using only a flare tool will open the neck to prevent shaving, but your putting the bullet vs the case in a plastic deformation completion and your bullet is loosing. There are 2 easy ways out of this problem. You can run an expander or you can shop for a die that doesn't size as much. Changing the die will still cause neck tension variation based on brass thickness, the expander included in your die set will resolve all current issues.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

They say to use a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die which seems to be at risk of squeezing down a soft bullet.

What these folks are doing is called post loading sizing.

What they do, and what the factory did, was to load unsized cases.

Take your fired case - decapped and reprimed, but unsized - drop in the powder, slide the bullet in.
Now run it through the Lee FCD, which will size it down enough to fit in the chamber.

Ever wonder at the cannelures in a factory 38 Spl round? They are there to keep the bullet from falling down onto the powder charge during high-speed loading. The factory uses oversized brass to ease loading, and to avoid just what you are seeing: soft seated bullet smashed down in the case.

 

[JimGnitecki]

What these folks are doing is called post loading sizing.

What they do, and what the factory did, was to load unsized cases.

Take your fired case - decapped and reprimed, but unsized - drop in the powder, slide the bullet in.
Now run it through the Lee FCD, which will size it down enough to fit in the chamber.

Ever wonder at the cannelures in a factory 38 Spl round? They are there to keep the bullet from falling down onto the powder charge during high-speed loading. The factory uses oversized brass to ease loading, and to avoid just what you are seeing: soft seated bullet smashed down in the case.

So, when using the Lee Factory Crimp Die, you still use a seating die to set the COAL, but then use the Lee FCD to both (a) crimp the bullet and (b) ensure the case OD stays within the SAAMI OD spec?

I would want to know that the Lee FCD would not "size" the case down to the .375" OD that actually does compress the bullet diameter to .355" because the .375" case OD coupled with the 2 x .0104 case wall thickness forces the soft bullet to compress to the .355" diameter.

Jim G

 

[Seedy Character]

.355 is too small
Don't roll crimp, taper is sufficient

Try some CLAYS. I get outstanding CAS loads with it.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

So, when using the Lee Factory Crimp Die, you still use a seating die to set the COAL, but then use the Lee FCD to both (a) crimp the bullet and (b) ensure the case OD stays within the SAAMI OD spec?

I would want to know that the Lee FCD would not "size" the case down to the .375" OD that actually does compress the bullet diameter to .355" because the .375" case OD coupled with the 2 x .0104 case wall thickness forces the soft bullet to compress to the .355" diameter.

Jim G

Yes on the first, although I seriously doubt that those cowboy loads need much of a crimp. More of a gentle taper would probably suffice.

As for the specs of the 38 Spl Lee FCD, I cannot help you there. A quick call to Lee Tech Support will give you n answer.

 

[JimGnitecki]

.355 is too small
Don't roll crimp, taper is sufficient

Try some CLAYS. I get outstanding CAS loads with it.

As the above analysis in this thread shows, it's not the Redding crimp die that is reducing the bullet diameter down to .355". Nor the Redding seating die. It's the sizing die sizing too much that is doing it.

And, even virgin cases appear to be too small a diameter to keep this bullet from being re-swaged down to .355". I think I will try to talk with both Hornady and Lee and get their take on this.

Jim G

 

[Jim Watson]

On a progressive press like my Dillon XL750, there is no "expander station". There are:
- (Re)sizing at station 1
- Priming, AND Flaring via Dillon's built-in flaring die, AND powder drop from the Dillon powder measure, at station 2
- Powder check at station 3
- Bullet seating at station 4
- Crimping at station 5

Where would I do what?

The wadcutter expanders showed above replace the Dillon "powder funnel" at station 2.

 

[JimGnitecki]

The wadcutter expanders showed above replace the Dillon "powder funnel" at station 2.

Ah, now I get it. I will take a look online at the expanders.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

How about a bigger expander? Even the one made for wadcutters:
https://uniquetek.com/product/T1735

Same thing as at photoescape, looks like same picture.

You might need the one optimized for the Zero bullet
https://uniquetek.com/product/T1772

They say to use a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die which seems to be at risk of squeezing down a soft bullet.

Jim Watson, if it also squeezes BELOW the height at which it crimps, I agree it might produce the same problem as the sizing dies does now. Would the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die squeeze down the case in the area below the crimp, or only at the crimp height on the case?

The Lee website diagram of the FCD SEEMS to show that it "envelopes" the entire case, but does not answer these questions:
- Does it squeeze the case below the height of the crimp itself?
- if so, to what OD does it squeeze the case?

I may need to call Lee and hope I get through to someone there to find out, unless someone here already knows.

Jim G

 

[Jim Watson]

The Lee website diagram of the FCD SEEMS to show that it "envelopes" the entire case, but does not answer these questions:
- Does it squeeze the case below the height of the crimp itself?
- if so, to what OD does it squeeze the case?

Yes, it "post sizes" the whole round.
I am loading bulk 9mm in mixed brass with the Lee at the final station.
A bright burnished ring is visible where the carbide insert touches. Some not at all; but many or most near the rim where the mouth radius of the Dillon sizing die did not touch. Some over the bullet, I am loading coated lead bullets, larger diameter than jacketed, and a fat bullet in a thick case will get sized down.

I will see if I can generate a processed case, it has been a while since I loaded any .38s and I don't recall the setup.

I think I would try the wadcutter expander/powder funnel with the regular profile crimp first.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Yes, it "post sizes" the whole round.
I am loading bulk 9mm in mixed brass with the Lee at the final station.
A bright burnished ring is visible where the carbide insert touches. Some not at all; but many or most near the rim where the mouth radius of the Dillon sizing die did not touch. Some over the bullet, I am loading coated lead bullets, larger diameter than jacketed, and a fat bullet in a thick case will get sized down.

I will see if I can generate a processed case, it has been a while since I loaded any .38s and I don't recall the setup.

I think I would try the wadcutter expander/powder funnel with the regular profile crimp first.

Thank-you! That was helpful information on the Lee die. IF you could at some point provide the outer diameter of the case in a finished cartridge done on the Lee FCD, just below the actual crimp zone, that would be super helpful. I plan to try to call Lee, but customer technical service access to most places has been a hit and miss lately, so I don't knwo if I will eb able to get through.

Jim G

 

[WVRJ]

Sizing dies are made to size the case below the optimum size.Then the expander die opens it up and flares the mouth.The portion of the case that the expander die opens up is most likely not quite as deep as the bullet will be seated,therefore creating a tighter fit right at the base of the bullet to help reduce bullet setback.Those Hornady bullets are soft enough to be swaged down if seated in an unexpanded case.Somehow you need to get an expander to open the brass up to the point that it doesn't shrink the bullet diameter.There are revolvers out there that come with 38/357 and 9MM cylinders and come with a note that says .355(9MM) bullets may not be as accurate as .358 bullets.It would be certain that the loose fitting bullets are also going to lose velocity,especially when fired in a revolver.Somehow,you're going to have to get an expander involved.The reason your fired brass is tight enough to reload without sizing is you aren't making enough pressure to properly expand the case and seal off the chamber,which is also exacerbating your loss of velocity.In other words,you're blowing it out both ends,lol.That's why your pic shows primers that look like they were seated and fired in an empty case-no hint of any pressure.Those soft bullets need a case that is loose enough to almost let you seat them by hand down to the point that the expander reaches.

 

[Roverguy]

Keep in mind that the swaged bullet will obturate significantly more than hard cast bullets. If unsized cases will chamber, then seating these bullets in unsized cases and applying a light crimp should be just fine, even if the heel swages down slightly on seating.

 

[JimGnitecki]

The Lee website itself proved to be able to answer my questions about the Lee Factory Crimp die. Apparently, what it does is it (a) crimps the top of the case into the bullet by a fully adjustable, user selected amount, and (b) uses a carbide ring built into it that runs down the outside of the case and then up the case, full length, BUT it is designed to only size the loaded cartridge case to the MAXIMUM OD specified for that caliber.

For 357 Magnum, the SAAMI specified maximum OD for the case is .379".

That WOULD solve the problem. .379 minus 2x the .0104 average case wall thickness = .3582". This means my .3577" bullet diameter would NOT be swaged down.

The Lee FCD seems to be usable on a bullet that does not have a crimping groove. You just turn the crimp adjustment knob down as much as you want. With out light CAS loads that would not need to be much.

So, at least in theory, I can set my press up so that:
- Station 1 merely decaps the case, without any resizing
- Station 2 primes, flares, and drops in the powder set up as is now with no changes
- Station 3 checks powder level as it does now with no changes
- Station 4 seats the bullet like now, but will need to be adjusted to seat the bullet without instead driving it completely into the case, like it did when I tried this with an unresized case earlier today. (I don't know why it did that. Need to figure that out)
- Station 5 crimps the bullet via the Lee FCD

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Sizing dies are made to size the case below the optimum size.Then the expander die opens it up and flares the mouth.The portion of the case that the expander die opens up is most likely not quite as deep as the bullet will be seated,therefore creating a tighter fit right at the base of the bullet to help reduce bullet setback.Those Hornady bullets are soft enough to be swaged down if seated in an unexpanded case.Somehow you need to get an expander to open the brass up to the point that it doesn't shrink the bullet diameter.There are revolvers out there that come with 38/357 and 9MM cylinders and come with a note that says .355(9MM) bullets may not be as accurate as .358 bullets.It would be certain that the loose fitting bullets are also going to lose velocity,especially when fired in a revolver.Somehow,you're going to have to get an expander involved.The reason your fired brass is tight enough to reload without sizing is you aren't making enough pressure to properly expand the case and seal off the chamber,which is also exacerbating your loss of velocity.In other words,you're blowing it out both ends,lol.That's why your pic shows primers that look like they were seated and fired in an empty case-no hint of any pressure.Those soft bullets need a case that is loose enough to almost let you seat them by hand down to the point that the expander reaches.

You make good points. The research and invitation for analytical comments and advice continues!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I managed to rather easily and quickly get through to Hornady tech support. The support technician had a very different perspective than me on this whole situation.

He said the limiting factor on testing handloads when firing a replica 1873 Peacemaker is the crappy sighting system. He was amazed that I got the Trail Boss load with hard cast bullets to shoot 1.5" to 2" 5-shot groups at 25 yards using those authentic 1873 sights. He actually asked if I somehow used optics. He said he would have expected me to get 4" groups at best with that firearm with any good load, but of course he is not ever going to say his company's bullet is inferior.

He said the std Dev of 9.7 was excellent for a cast bullet in a light CAS load, and proves, surprisingly, that there is no "too little powder in a large case volume" issue.

he said that getting over 800 fps with my 4.75" barrel length versus 900 fps for Hornady's 10" barrel length, was what he would expect. (And remember i am not getting excessive leading, but instead actually got a pretty clean barrel after the lengthy shooting session.)

He said he admired my setting the higher goal of 1.5" to 2" groups like I got with the hard cast bullet when I did MY part, but said that was unusually good grouping, especially given the sights, so I might need to try a number of bullet and powder configurations to reproduce that kind of result. He does not regard it as being typically attainable with these replica handguns.

He said He says a .003" crimp effect on cast bullet handloads is a good target for crimp, and my .3578" average virgin bullet OD being reduced to .355" is a .0028" reduction, which is within that range. He personally would like to see maybe a .356" seated and crimped bullet OD, but the .355" does not shout "problem" to him.

But he also agrees that if I want to try it, loading the fired cases withOUT resizing would be worth trying if I am determined to chase a better group size, and have or can get the hardware to enable that. But he says he certainly would not spend a lot of money on that because the firearm's sights are the limiting factor here, not the ammunition. And, he said, I should record the exact setup I have right now because it is a good one from his perspective.

His point is decent, because while I can take many seconds to try to align those crappy sights as well as I possibly can when doing ladder testing, in actual CAS matches, where the TIME spent on shooting a stage is far, far more important than accuracy that is simply good enough to hit the target ANYWHERE on it, I will not be able to take the time to do that alignment. The good CAS shooters shoot an entire 5-shot cylinder in what, maybe a couple of seconds? But my thinking is that the more accurate I can make the ammunition, and the more error I can separately yank out of the now-proven sight windage and elevation errors, the quicker I can fire strings of shots with higher confidence that I will still be able to hit the metal targets.

So, I'm going to do some experimenting to see if I can successfully load ammo using the un-resized cases, and see if that changes anything for the better.

Jim G

 

[jmorris]

He said he admired my setting the higher goal of 1.5" to 2" groups like I got with the hard cast bullet when I did MY part, but said that was unusually good grouping, especially given the sights, so I might need to try a number of bullet and powder configurations to reproduce that kind of result. He does not regard it as being typically attainable with these replica handguns.

I would agree with him.

One of these makes it a little easier though. Optics do too even without the machine rest. It takes away the “holding small” job but you still have to find something that works.



That said, I have never seen any SASS stage that required anywhere near that accuracy. Most of the “partners” I know are running 125’s with tiny charges of Clays.

 

[AJC1]

I managed to rather easily and quickly get through to Hornady tech support. The support technician had a very different perspective than me on this whole situation.

He said the limiting factor on testing handloads when firing a replica 1873 Peacemaker is the crappy sighting system. He was amazed that I got the Trail Boss load with hard cast bullets to shoot 1.5" to 2" 5-shot groups at 25 yards using those authentic 1873 sights. He actually asked if I somehow used optics. He said he would have expected me to get 4" groups at best with that firearm with any good load, but of course he is not ever going to say his company's bullet is inferior.

He said the std Dev of 9.7 was excellent for a cast bullet in a light CAS load, and proves, surprisingly, that there is no "too little powder in a large case volume" issue.

he said that getting over 800 fps with my 4.75" barrel length versus 900 fps for Hornady's 10" barrel length, was what he would expect. (And remember i am not getting excessive leading, but instead actually got a pretty clean barrel after the lengthy shooting session.)

He said he admired my setting the higher goal of 1.5" to 2" groups like I got with the hard cast bullet when I did MY part, but said that was unusually good grouping, especially given the sights, so I might need to try a number of bullet and powder configurations to reproduce that kind of result. He does not regard it as being typically attainable with these replica handguns.

He said He says a .003" crimp effect on cast bullet handloads is a good target for crimp, and my .3578" average virgin bullet OD being reduced to .355" is a .0028" reduction, which is within that range. He personally would like to see maybe a .356" seated and crimped bullet OD, but the .355" does not shout "problem" to him.

But he also agrees that if I want to try it, loading the fired cases withOUT resizing would be worth trying if I am determined to chase a better group size, and have or can get the hardware to enable that. But he says he certainly would not spend a lot of money on that because the firearm's sights are the limiting factor here, not the ammunition. And, he said, I should record the exact setup I have right now because it is a good one from his perspective.

His point is decent, because while I can take many seconds to try to align those crappy sights as well as I possibly can when doing ladder testing, in actual CAS matches, where the TIME spent on shooting a stage is far, far more important than accuracy that is simply good enough to hit the target ANYWHERE on it, I will not be able to take the time to do that alignment. The good CAS shooters shoot an entire 5-shot cylinder in what, maybe a couple of seconds? But my thinking is that the more accurate I can make the ammunition, and the more error I can separately yank out of the now-proven sight windage and elevation errors, the quicker I can fire strings of shots with higher confidence that I will still be able to hit the metal targets.

So, I'm going to do some experimenting to see if I can successfully load ammo using the un-resized cases, and see if that changes anything for the better.

Jim G

Your question of swaging is easily answered with a single case and bullet no powder. Seat a bullet, disassemble with a kenitic hammer and you can test the point at which the expander is big enough to prevent swaging. At 7 bucks you may want to order a few vs just one.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/pro...ing-reloading/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/

 

[Jim Watson]

Right, measurement, not arithmetic.

Sorry, I could not come up with my .38 Special CFC die. Lost, strayed, or stolen, more likely loaned out.

The Hornady rep was F.O.S. You have demonstrated better accuracy with 1873 sights.

 

[JimGnitecki]

JMorris, I love the processes and equipment you develop for "home use". REALLY good. If i had more money and 10 acres, that's what I'd be trying to do!

AJC1 I am going to try to set myself up with one of those expanders, and like you say, multiple sizes would be even better. The Lee website by the way says that you can get custom-made FCDs from them for only $30US if you tell them what IS you want in that carbide sizing collar that ensures the case satys under a specified OD AFTER the bullet has been crimped.

Jim Watson: Yes, the Hornady tech may have been underestimating what a really obsessed shooter can do with those crappy 1873 excuses for sights, but Jmorris is right that most CAS shooters are perfectly happy to hit the target ANYWHERE on it. The really competitive ones actually keep the trigger depressed throughout a string of 5 and merely drop the cocked hammer whenever the target seems to be in sight. Those guys sound like a fast AR-15 shooter when they shoot.

For the next range session, I just loaded up 60 more rounds at just one powder load: the 4.0 grains that worked better than anything else during that ladder test. During that session, I will again be chronographing with the Labradar, but I am going to concentrate on developing a way to hold a very reproducible sight picture, holding that front sight relative to the rear sight in some not-necessarily-intended-by-the-desginers manner. I may even try to place a small dot of white paint on the front sight to act as a "bead". The whole idea will be to see how consistently I can hold the sights and see what happens to the 5-shot group size AND the windage and elevation variance from POA. That might make future ladder testing a bit easier and more definitive.

Now that I am actually trying to produce actual production runs of ammo for each range session, I took the time to install my new Dillon variable speed case feeder. I have to admit, Dillon has come a ways with that casefeeder. It has an easy to set up clutch, to protect the motor. A spacer under the rotating plate makes the tall narrow 357 Mag cases feed well and stay upright. The power supply is now fully universal. Plug it into ANY power receptacle from 120 to 240 volts with the appropriate "adapter pin plate", and it runs.

The variable speed is a nice touch too. You can adjust it to match your loading rhythm, and it runs more smoothly and quietly as a result (Its noise was always before a bit of a negative). But with the high mount setup from Inline Fabrication, which is several inches higher than the Dillon Strong Mount, mounted on a 36" high bench, I needed to use a stepladder to set the clutch pressure! Then, I accidentally dumped a plastic bag into it that Starline cases come in while topping it up, and had to use the ladder to retrieve it! The top of the casefeeder is now 77 inches above the floor! I'm only 5'7" even though I used to be a bit taller when younger.

Jim G

 

[reddog81]

When using soft swaged lead bullets it's helpful to have the correct expander. All the other measurements and analysis are unnecessary. Get rid of the powder check die or seat and crimp in the same and you can add in the appropriate expander or otherwise replace the powder through expander with the one linked to above by Jim Watson.

Trying to seat bullets in fired cases will result in frustration unless using exactly the right sized bullets(as determined by fired cases) and all guns have the exact same charging hole sizes or chamber sizes.

 

[P Flados]

Jim,

I have worked up tons of different loads with cast bullets. Many loads worked as desire first try, but some did not. The most common cause of problems have been having bullets that were too small.

After reading all of the posts above, it reminded me of a discussion I had previously some across in regard to the lack of an expander function in the standard Dillon setup. It was a longish thread and an bunch of folks all ended up agreeing that Dillon was not doing their customers right by leaving out this function. The expander function is a standard part of a normal reloading dies for several very good reasons.