Case fill advice for .38 Special

[milsurpguy]

For context a 38spl case has an internal volume of about 1.5cc.
Yeah don't powder puff load 38spl with a fast powder. The powder puff ammo gets double charged, may cause a squib and then the next bullet clears it.
I say hot load it with a slower powder at least as slow as universal, HP38/w231, get that case at least half full. It's a little harder to get a half case with 158gr bullets.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I feel I need to address something. Many of you have pointed out that good habits should be developed. Agreed, and I have confirmation now that the friend I'm helping is reading this thread. Should he choose to weigh in, he would, I think, tell you that checking powder charges with a flashlight is a step we put into his procedure from from his first load. That said, I don't see why it hurts to have a powder bulky enough to make the difference easier to see when you are checking.

I have over the years seen a number of pictures posted on of revolvers with blown out cylinders. In almost every case someone will blame that on a low bulk fast powder like Titegroup or bullseye. Titegroup, Bullseye (and 244, though that one doesn't catch a lot of blame) have just about the lowest volume of any powder I've looked at for .38 SPL. (See below)

So it seems like there's some conventional wisdom floating around, and indeed, it seems obvious from a casual reflection on the topic, that higher bulk powders are a good idea for these cases. I'm open to education if I'm missing something here....

And by the way, this isn't only a recommendation I'm making to him. This will be the first time I've loaded for .38SPL (or any revolver cartridge) and these are choices I'm thinking through and making for myself as well. And even though I will check every charge, the bulkiness of the powder and case fill it provides seem to be something that would play into those decisions.

Trailboss
2.7 x .2172 = .59cc
4.2 x .2172 = .91cc

Silhouette
5.2 x .0796 = 0.41cc
5.6 x .0796 = 0.45cc


Titegroup
3.2 x .0848 = .27cc
3.8 x .0848 = .32cc


HS-6
5.7 x .0712 = .41cc
6.3 x .0712 = .45cc


CFE Pistol
4.8 x .0754 = .36cc
5.3 x .0754 = .40cc

Clays
2.8 x .1462 = 0.41cc
3.1 x .1462 = 0.45cc

Autocomp
4.8 x .0787 = .37cc
5.3 x .0787 = .42cc

WST
3.3 x ???
3.7 x ???

Power Pistol
4.8 x .0889 = .43cc
5.4 x .0889 = .48cc

Win 244
3.4 x .0789 = 0.27cc
3.8 x .0789 = 0.30cc

Bullseye
3.5 x .1064 = .37cc

I can agree with that. It does make it easier to see mistakes.
Here's my powder experience.
Stay away from CFE-P in 38spl. I've had squibs at lower charge weights. It's great in other applications.
Titegroup gives me powder forward/back POI shifts.
I do like universal in 38 special. I also like 700x. But it's not very friendly in a volumetric measure.
I had initial good results with AUTOCOMP. But I got busy and never finished testing.
GreenDot gives good accuracy in a small charge window.
BlueDot gave extremely good accuracy with 170 gr bullets. But was smoky because it was not in it's happy place.

 

[JNeilWix]

For context a 38spl case has an internal volume of about 1.5cc.
Yeah don't powder puff load 38spl with a fast powder. The powder puff ammo gets double charged, may cause a squib and then the next bullet clears it.
I say hot load it with a slower powder at least as slow as universal, HP38/w231, get that case at least half full. It's a little harder to get a half case with 158gr bullets.

The next shot after a squib usually doesn't clear anything but your colon....

 

[JNeilWix]

Instead of looking for a powder that makes it impossible to double charge.
Learn good habits like starting with all the cases flipped upside down.
If the case is mouth up. You know it has powder.
If that isn't enough.
Do the first thing combined with putting the bullet in the case mouth after charging the case.
If that isn't enough. Seat the bullet immediately.

I usually seat the bullet immediately after dumping a charge.

I personally load most of my pistol loads on a progressive, so I always eyeball the charge before I place a bullet. However, for those loading on a single stage, I recommend what I have done in the past, which is to charge a full tray and then use a flashlight or other good light source to look down into all the cases and verify they all look "the same." If anything looks off, I grab a scale and check it. Starting with case mouth down and flipping when you charge is a good idea...I like it...

 

[rfwobbly]

...he would tell you that checking powder charges with a flashlight is a step we put into his procedure from from his first load. That said, I don't see why it hurts to have a powder bulky enough to make the difference easier to see when you are checking.

Your intent is very good, and well thought out.

The base problem is that 38Spcl was designed to use black powder, which is much less dense than smokeless powder. Therefore the 38Spcl case is cavernous, and no smokeless powder is really going to be satisfactory. As far as case fill, Unique and Trail Boss might come the closest, but their overall performance lags.

Hope you can find something.

 

[Bill M.]

Note that Trail Boss is only for use with lead, powder coated, or plated bullets. It can not be used with jacketed bullets in .38 Special, And yes, a double charge of Trail Boss will spill over the top of a .38 special case. Well, at least it does in a .357 case. I quit loading .38 Special cases before I found Trail Boss,

I drop the powder in the case, look in the case to see the powder and if it looks about right, and then drop a bullet in the case nose down before I set the case down. I check the powder level visually again when I turn the bullets over and seat them.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

If you really want to fill the case, and don’t mind a big flash, you can use IMR 4227. It nearly fills the case, but is slow, so it will burn a lot of powder after the bullet clears the muzzle. It is an option though, especially if you are loading heavy bullets in a long(ish) barrel.

 

[JNeilWix]

Your intent is very good, and well thought out.

The base problem is that 38Spcl was designed to use black powder, which is much less dense than smokeless powder. Therefore the 38Spcl case is cavernous, and no smokeless powder is really going to be satisfactory. As far as case fill, Unique and Trail Boss might come the closest, but their overall performance lags.

Hope you can find something.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head here. The problem stems from the fact that it was originally a black powder case and we're loading with smokeless. I get that. Someone pointed out I could still load the black, and that might be fun, but probably not what we're looking for...

Note that Trail Boss is only for use with lead, powder coated, or plated bullets. It can not be used with jacketed bullets in .38 Special, And yes, a double charge of Trail Boss will spill over the top of a .38 special case. Well, at least it does in a .357 case. I quit loading .38 Special cases before I found Trail Boss,

I drop the powder in the case, look in the case to see the powder and if it looks about right, and then drop a bullet in the case nose down before I set the case down. I check the powder level visually again when I turn the bullets over and seat them.

Now that's a good tip. I didn't know that it could not be used with jacketed bullets. Do you know why?

If you really want to fill the case, and don’t mind a big flash, you can use IMR 4227. It nearly fills the case, but is slow, so it will burn a lot of powder after the bullet clears the muzzle. It is an option though, especially if you are loading heavy bullets in a long(ish) barrel.

I don't really feel the need to "fill the case" or even really to make it filled enough to spill on a double. I do want a bulky powder that will use a reasonable amount of the available volume and make over (or under) charges more obvious. So the 4227 sounds like a good option if you're going to use the rounds in a lever action rifle... That's good info, I'd like to get a lever action .38/357 someday.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

So the 4227 sounds like a good option if you're going to use the rounds in a lever action rifle... That's good info, I'd like to get a lever action .38/357 someday.

I highly recommend a 38/357 lever action. They are a lot of fun, and can actually be used for serious work as well. The only thing I don’t like about my Henry is the absence of a side loading gate; but holding 11 rounds or .38 or 10 rounds of .357 it isn’t a necessity.

 

[Bfh_auto]

​

Yep, you hit the nail on the head here. The problem stems from the fact that it was originally a black powder case and we're loading with smokeless. I get that. Someone pointed out I could still load the black, and that might be fun, but probably not what we're looking for...



Now that's a good tip. I didn't know that it could not be used with jacketed bullets. Do you know why?



I don't really feel the need to "fill the case" or even really to make it filled enough to spill on a double. I do want a bulky powder that will use a reasonable amount of the available volume and make over (or under) charges more obvious. So the 4227 sounds like a good option if you're going to use the rounds in a lever action rifle... That's good info, I'd like to get a lever action .38/357 someday.

Imr4227 is slow for 357 in a rifle. It still leaves unburned flakes.

 

[mdi]

FWIW I'm going to go with a different safety approach. When learning to reload develop safe reloading practiced right from the beginning and make them a hard and fast habit. The 38 Special was designed as a black powder cartridge, thus the large case for the pressures used. Really simple habit to develop and works 100% is look in every case before seating a bullet to make sure there is powder there and that it's not twice as much as you want. I had a squib in 1970 and since then I have looked in every case I have reloaded. Easy and effective and takes no extra time...

I use Universal in most of my handgun loads, but I also use Bullseye and occasionally Titegroup (small charges). I have successfully determined which powder to use for performance reasons, not to keep me from making a mistake....

 

[vongh]

For a bulky handgun powder 800 x works for me. It's usually cheaper and available.

 

[murf]

I don't see why it hurts to have a powder bulky enough to make the difference easier to see when you are checking.

because it limits your powder choices to one.

In almost every case someone will blame that on a low bulk fast powder like Titegroup or bullseye.

your opinion and way overgeneralized. blame "that" on someone not checking the powder level in the case (my opinion).

that higher bulk powders are a good idea for these cases.

as are lower bulk powders. check the powder level with a wooden dowel as @35 Whelen suggests, if you can't tell. as @George P says, take what you can get regarding powders. don't limit yourself to just bulk powders.

you are just learning this, as is you friend and others reading this post. i, and a bunch of others it seems, want you all to understand that reloading isn't easy and that the lackadaisical attitude that comes along with "easy" gets people into trouble here.

checking for the correct powder charge in each and every case is the most important step in the reloading process. if some of us get bent out of shape because some think the step is not that important, so be it.

on a lighter note: kudos to you for teaching you friend how to reload. it's not easy.

hope you have a tough hide,

murf

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

​

Imr4227 is slow for 357 in a rifle. It still leaves unburned flakes.

But as a trade off, you get some very accurate and consistent loads. It’s a trade I willingly make on a regular basis. H110 gets me more FPS, but my accuracy tends to fall off.

 

[Obturation]

Imr4227 is slow for 357 in a rifle. It still leaves unburned flakes.

Yep, I've noticed the same. I can't get imr4227 to burn completely in 357, not even from a rifle. If I make a monstrous load in 454 casull it does clean up but I don't love it. H110 has been my go to for full case, full power magnum handgun loading.

 

[Dudedog]

Can't find the VMD for WST, do you (or anyone) have that?

What Lee shows is .1203, sometimes they are really close sometimes not so close, and it can vary a little from lot to lot.

VV N320 is fairly bulky as well .121

Sheet1 is an excell file I made to do calcs, no marcos in it

 

[Bfh_auto]

But as a trade off, you get some very accurate and consistent loads. It’s a trade I willingly make on a regular basis. H110 gets me more FPS, but my accuracy tends to fall off.

I get great accuracy from h110 and Lil Gun. Both are pretty amazing in the velocity department when they are stepped on pretty hard.
I save the IMR4227 for my cast bullet rifle loads.

 

[AgPilot]

Have a friend looking to load 158gr .38 special and I'm trying to help him find a good powder. I'd prefer a powder bulky enough to provide substantial case fill at nominal charge weights so as to preclude the possibility of a double charge.

What powders would be suitable?

Unique

 

[snowman357]

Have a friend looking to load 158gr .38 special and I'm trying to help him find a good powder. I'd prefer a powder bulky enough to provide substantial case fill at nominal charge weights so as to preclude the possibility of a double charge.

What powders would be suitable?

Good idea with bulk powders, but will limit your options greatly. Batch loading, load powder on all cases or until running out of loading blocks, before loading bullet shine a small flashlight into each case to inspect powder levels they should all look the same height, then seat bullets. No chargeor double charge usually happens from distractions.

 

[milsurpguy]

The main powders I think that might give half a case full under a 158 are general dynamics cbi, herco and definitely trail boss.
Probably have to load them to at least +p to get a case half full.

 

[Obturation]

general dynamics cbi,

Huh? New one on me

 

[milsurpguy]

Huh? New one on me

It's millsurp stuff, no load data, it was actually available till very recently. I would recommend for experienced reloaders only.
My lot burns almost exactly like universal in 9mm and 45acp.
Main problem is its about half the density of universal. So 5.5gr fills a 9x19 to the case 100%.