case separation or just chamber marking

[gunguy59]

I am new to reloading and the thought of having case separation on a reloaded round freaks me out.

So i have collected a good amount of brass that was ONLY shot from my 2 rifles (rem 770 30-06 and a savage 30-06). I have 3 different kinds, Hornady, Winchester, and PPU (which i think is federal boxed ammo)

I was tinkering around last night decapping and cleaning the primer holes when i noticed a ring mark around the bottom of a few cases.. thought to myself, ok these aren't good ones. Then i started digging in the bags of brass (about 50 pieces in each bag). Almost all of the winchester brass has these markings, some of the hornady, and pretty much none of the PPU.

These rings are before I even decap and size them so i don't think it could be the die doing it.

I felt the outside of the case and did not feel any "bulges" put a paper clip inside the case and didn't feel anything on the inside either.

Thee are factory brass that I only shot once. I don't think winchester, hornady, federal sell "shot once" without stating it on the box right? These didn't say that anyway.

Am i being way too paranoid on case separation and now that i read up on it, any ring on the brass i am "thinking" too much on it?

Is it because my rifles are crap and there is too much space in the chamber and the round is expanding more at the base?... or is all this normal? I looked at my AR-15 shot .223 brass and it does have the ring markings, just not as many or as noticeable.

I attached a picture, the brass on the left is Hornady and the right side is winchester.

(sorry if the picture is super big, i just wanted to show a clear picture up close)

any advise would be appreciated. thanks everyone!!

 

[Reloadron]

The picture is fine, good quality. Just take a dental pic or a bent heavy duty paper clip and drag along the inside of the case where the rings are. Do you feel the start of a crack? Scroll down this page to "If you are really on a tight budget, and you want to check the case to make sure that the wall is not thinning, you can manufacture the following tool ... cost is cheap ... manufacturing process is simple ...".

Note the picture and get an idea from there. The rings you see are fairly normal. Eventually they become very pronounced with the start of problems.


Ron

 

[mugsie]

It's difficult to tell from the picture, but if you ran a paper clip inside trying to feel and little depression in the brass, and felt nothing, you should be good to go. I see this on some of my brass also and I know my head space is perfect (built my own rifles and set the head space myself) yet sometimes there's these "rings" on the brass. What I do is bend a paperclip so there's a little "L" on the bottom, then slide it into the case. If there is any type of depression on the brass, you'll feel it.

The other thing I would mention is your charge weights. If you're not pushing the envelope at max weights, you should be able to get many many reloads out of a set of brass.

Just for your own edification however, pick up a headspace gauge and try it in your rifle. You may have to remove the ejector from the bolt, but on the savage it's no big deal. You want to feel it bottoming against the gauge and not be confused by the pressure the ejector places on the shell. This will tell you if you have it set properly for a "go" condition. Then I usually place a small piece of scotch tape on the back, or you can use a "no-go" gauge, and check it. If it fails the no go test - do not shoot it but get if repaired. The Savage is easy - loosen the locking nut, tighten the barrel etc. There are plenty of videos on the web to help you there.

If all proves ok, no depressions in the brass, safe loads, head space ok - then shoot em'. You'll be fine. Just make sure you check all the variables first.

 

[243winxb]

Brass from fired factory ammo , before sizing.

brass on the left is Hornady

Superformance ammunition? I see a few i dont like. From left, 3 , 5 and last one.

 

[gunguy59]

case separation

i forgot to mention, these round were not above 150 / 180 grain. (who knows what kind of charge was really in them from the factory)

i will try out the paper clip method again and see what i can find out.

starting to wonder if my rifle may need some work..

 

[rg1]

Common to have those rings but also something to check. The solid base of the case does not expand while the walls of the case do expand to chamber size. The solid base is smaller than the chamber. The sizing die sizes the walls but not down to it's original factory diameter so it leaves the ring. However that also is the area that case stretching can occur so check inside the cases for the classic ring when cases stretch. Higher loads sometimes leaves a more obvious ring than mild loads. I do recommend a case headspace gauge to push the shoulder back a measured amount. I like Hornady's Headspace gauge set and the RCBS Precision Mic. Of the rifle calibers I load it seems 30-06 and 25-06 brass has the rings like in your pic more than other calibers?

 

[Walkalong]

Looks like expansion to fill the chamber and it shows where the thick part meets the thin part. Using a feeler inside will tell.

Like this.

 

[243winxb]

Primers look higher on the left Hormady brass, but could be the different angle.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

It wouldn't hurt to check for separation on the inside of the cases but they look pretty normal from the photo. Here is a photo that may help show what to look for on the outside of a case that is getting ready to separate. Notice the lighter colored line above the chamber markings on the brass. The marks below this line is normal for most of my guns that shoot this round.

 

[Walkalong]

Another pictorial on case head separation.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734058

 

[PCCUSNRET]

Another pictorial on case head separation.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734058

Walkalong, great info!

I should have mentioned that the 4 cases on the left were reloads and the 2 on the right were new GP-11 ammo. Had I looked a little closer at the brass before I reloaded it I might have noticed that these cases were about to separate after only one firing. What is (was) very strange about this is the head space for the the gun these rounds were fired in was found to be "good". I've had this happen now with the ammo from this lot in 3 different Swiss rifles (a K-31, a K-11 Carbine and a 1911). Now any brass from this case goes straight to the scrap bin. What was really strange is that I loaded some rounds using Prvi Partizan and Graf brass and had no signs of separation from any of these three rifles.

 

[W.E.G.]

Take the worst one, and section it with a dremel.

That will be the solid answer.

 

[gunguy59]

so is that picture of a case failure or improper head space on the rifle? cause that is exactly what mine looks like.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

so is that picture of a case failure or improper head space on the rifle? cause that is exactly what mine looks like.

Which picture are you referring to? It is really impossible to tell if your cases are getting ready to split by looking at the photo you posted. If you followed Walkalong's advice on how to check the inside of the case and didn't feel that groove above the head of the brass then chances are that they are not getting ready to separate. If you look a the photo of the brass I posted there are marks in the brass that were made by the brass expanding in the chamber and further up the body of the brass there is a "white" ring indicating the brass is about to separate. I don't think your brass is getting ready to separate from looking at your photo but I can't be positive. If you don't see the white line around the case and don't feel the groove on the inside, I'd load them again. The only other thing you can do is cut one in half and then you'd know for sure.

 

[Reloadron]

so is that picture of a case failure or improper head space on the rifle? cause that is exactly what mine looks like.

Every time a case is fired it expands and when we re size the case it is compressed. This is working the brass and when worked enough the brass grows weak. Sooner or later something is going to give and that generally is in the form of what we call incipient case head separation. Not a good thing because hot gasses escape into the chamber. So one cause is overworked brass, you can only expect so many loadings from bottle neck rifle brass. Excessive chamber head space can also contribute. Think about it, excessive head space means the brass will expand more than normal when the cartridge is fired.

There is no way to see the inside of the brass you originally posted. Thus we use a scratch or feeler method to gain some insight as to what is going on in there. Once fired new factory brass fired in a chamber that meets SAAMI specification should be fine. If you ever get to questioning your chamber meeting specifications a competent gunsmith can check the chamber using a head space gauge. The gauges look like the link.

The brass you posted looks fine. The "ring" you see near the base is normal, it does not mean you are about to have a catastrophic incipient case head separation. Eventually you will know what you are feeling for. If you are really curious use a dremel with a cutoff wheel and open a case or muddle through with a hacksaw. Don't let fear get the best of you.

When I load for example .308 Winchester I full length re size the brass for my M1A or AR10 rifles. I generally use the brass for 4 loadings and then trash it. My 308 boly gun I load for differently and look at about 6 loadings and trash the brass. I do not load brass I do not know the history of. You will develop your own habits.

Ron

 

[gunguy59]

case separation

thanks everyone. I tried the scratch test and didn't feel anything. I think i will also side with caution (like i have my whole life and thus why my wife can't stand me a lot of times - lol) I will take one that looks bad and split it to see. I am also going to get a gauge for my rifle. be a good idea to have one on hand anyway.

yes, i am pretty worried about it cause its my first time and i like my body parts where they are at ;-)

i did load 50 rounds for the first time this past weekend, turned out pretty well i think. All measurements came in perfect and i went with a low charge to see where i need to work up to. can't wait to fire them off and see how well i did.

thank you all for your help. beers are on me. virtual beer that is since you all live in much better places than me (Florida) hahaha

Ed

 

[Reloadron]

thanks everyone. I tried the scratch test and didn't feel anything. I think i will also side with caution (like i have my whole life and thus why my wife can't stand me a lot of times - lol) I will take one that looks bad and split it to see. I am also going to get a gauge for my rifle. be a good idea to have one on hand anyway.

yes, i am pretty worried about it cause its my first time and i like my body parts where they are at ;-)

i did load 50 rounds for the first time this past weekend, turned out pretty well i think. All measurements came in perfect and i went with a low charge to see where i need to work up to. can't wait to fire them off and see how well i did.

thank you all for your help. beers are on me. virtual beer that is since you all live in much better places than me (Florida) hahaha

Ed

Nothing wrong with being cautious. A case gauge is a good investment and as long as you mention them I would suggest a Sheridan Engineering Case Gauge. That along the lines of your basic Go/NoGo type case gauge. This thread covers several of the flavors case gauges come in so get familiar with the types and what they measure (tell you).

Ron

 

[Walkalong]

The Sheridan is very nice. I have a non cut out one in .223, along with my Wilson.

 

[murf]

the ring just looks like the bottom edge of your sizing die. the rings are all the same distance up from the head. since you already checked for separation with the paperclip and are planning on sectioning a case, i'd say you are good to go.

murf

 

[Walkalong]

Look at the cases in parker51's post. The first two on the right show the bulge from expansion, the next three show that and the bright line of pending separation, with the last showing the bulge from expansion and a separation just above where the bright line was showing on the middle cases.

 

[Walkalong]

Look at the cases in parker51's post. The first two on the right show the bulge from expansion (And the very start of a bright line above), the next three show the bulge and the bright line of pending separation, with the last showing the bulge from expansion and a separation just above where the bright line was showing on the middle cases.

 

[Bart B.]

That "pressure ring" is normal for all cases.

If it's even all the way around, that shows the case wall thickness is very uniform. If uneven, then there's a spread in wall thickness. Compare the pressure ring on this case; big on one side but zero on the other:



That's the point where case wall thickness goes from about .030" at the bottom of the inside of the case to about .180" at the case head.