6.5x50 - scratch ring near case head

[Alemaniac]

After firing 41 rounds of virgin 6.5x50 PPU brass that I personally loaded - 32gr of H4895 and 140gr Nosler partition, it was time to decap and resize the brass and prep for a second loading. Every case bulged after firing and I'm well aware of this - EVERYONE mentions the Type 38 has an oversized chamber and that the casings bulge after firing and I'm not here to discuss something that's been beaten to death.

What really concerns me is this: after running each lubed case into my Lee full length decapping/resizing die, I noticed a large scratch ring where the bulge once was. Some cases the scratch ring is light while some the scratch ring is deep enough that I can run my fingernail into the groove.

Here's a photo of one of the really bad ones:


Is the integrity of the brass compromised?

I'm very hesitant about loading these again and worry about case-head separation or anything that could cause a major catastrophe while firing a second time.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[troy fairweather]

it's common to see a line there but catching you finger nail sounds bad. cut one of them open and see how it looks. you may be better off making brass from 30-06

 

[Galil5.56]

Wow, that looks... Interesting. I use the same brass in my AG-42, and have never seen anything like that. That load is very mild, so I can't see over-pressure being part of issue, and as said by Troy, the line/bulge is common, but not catching your nail (crack?). I have had rifles that REALLY bulge (Ishapore 2A), and to a much lesser extent my No4 MKII and Arisaka, but even after 5 or more reloads never any nail catching.

I think a drawing in Hatcher's book has something very similar, explaining the why to it, and if you have this PDF book take a look. I have it, and after I post will look for it.

Good luck, I hope the folks of THR and you can figure this out.

 

[Galil5.56]

Here is what I remember, taken from Hatcher's Notebook... See the top and middle fired case. I too use LEE 6.5x55 dies, but had a set of 7.5x54 MAS dies that WAY, WAY oversized the case, even very far down toward the base. It felt like I was using a swaging set-up during resizing... I mean HARD, in my Rock Chucker Supreme! The shoulder was way undersized too, so back to LEE they went with three fired cases.

They fully acknowledged the manufacturing issue, and I received very good service to include the tech sending me dimensional drawings in German, and I use them to this day. I wonder have you mic'd your resized cases, to see if they too are being way oversized, esp at the base causing what is shown in Hatcher's book?

 

[troy fairweather]

maybe you should just neck size, with the chamber being large and a die that maybe over sizing your brass.

 

[Galil5.56]

Sorry Alemaniac, my unnatural love and obsession for 6.5x55 got me... I now see 6.5x50 Arisaka is the round you are having problems with, good news is the Hatcher content is still valid. Would not surprise me in the least that the die you have is the culprit, and could have been made by anyone. Also willing to bet if so, if you sent off three fired cases to Lee with your die, they will cut one to suit, as they did for me.

 

[Galil5.56]

maybe you should just neck size, with the chamber being large and a die that maybe over sizing your brass.

Not a bad idea that I follow myself, and if the die is in fact not the best fit for his rifle for FL sizing should it be wanted, It's trip back to Lee will make all options a go.

 

[troy fairweather]

you could also leave the die high up so you don't size that part.

 

[Alemaniac]

Troy, Galil,

Thank you for the prompt replies, things are beginning to make sense now. (Well partially)

cut one of them open and see how it looks

I've only used my pipe cutter to trim the excess necks while resizing .30-06 to 7.7 Japanese...this took quite some turning with that little cutter to completely cut it ( I had no idea how truly thick the brass becomes as it gets closer to the head). (Not a very good photo) I did not notice any cracks or stressing on the inside of the case:

I think a drawing in Hatcher's book has something very similar, explaining the why to it, and if you have this PDF book take a look. I have it, and after I post will look for it.

I do not have this literature, but I'd gladly take a PDF of it if possible.

Also willing to bet if so, if you sent off three fired cases to Lee with your die, they will cut one to suit, as they did for me.

This is definitely a strong option to consider, given the circumstances.

you could also leave the die high up so you don't size that part.

I feel ignorant here, but how is this possible for the decapping pin to fully push the spent primer out while preventing the case from fully entering the entire die body and resizing it?

Last but not least:

you may be better off making brass from 30-06

I've read about using 35 Remington, .243 Win, 220 Swift to name a few, but 30-06? I've used that to form my 7.7x58mm successfully but that's it. I'm really curious as to the process of forming such a long case into something much shorter. What's your formula?

Thanks so much for the replies!

 

[troy fairweather]

Troy, Galil,

Thank you for the prompt replies, things are beginning to make sense now. (Well partially)


I've only used my pipe cutter to trim the excess necks while resizing .30-06 to 7.7 Japanese...this took quite some turning with that little cutter to completely cut it ( I had no idea how truly thick the brass becomes as it gets closer to the head). (Not a very good photo) I did not notice any cracks or stressing on the inside of the case:
View attachment 832208


I do not have this literature, but I'd gladly take a PDF of it if possible.


This is definitely a strong option to consider, given the circumstances.


I feel ignorant here, but how is this possible for the decapping pin to fully push the spent primer out while preventing the case from fully entering the entire die body and resizing it?

Last but not least:

I've read about using 35 Remington, .243 Win, 220 Swift to name a few, but 30-06? I've used that to form my 7.7x58mm successfully but that's it. I'm really curious as to the process of forming such a long case into something much shorter. What's your formula?

Thanks so much for the replies!

you need to cut the brass farther up, for sizing just screw down the decapping rod, the 30-06 brass is thicker then your ppu brass(on the out side) this may work for you if your chamber is vary large. just use you cutter and cut the 06 a bit longer then your ppu brass, remove you decapping stem and rin it in to the die with ost of case lube. then trim to finale length and resize with the die with the decap rod like normal.

 

[Galil5.56]

Some thoughts:



I want to make sure we are on the same sheet of music. Re-reading your OP, I may have been addressing an issue I think I see and addressed, rather than what your post implied to me and what you meant.

Is what you call a scratch ring what I added a red line to in your photo, the area circled in green, or both? Let me explain.

Is the horizontal feature near the red line almost like a thin belt around the case, kinda like a belted magnum case, but much less pronounced? If so, this is exactly the experience I had with the Lee sizer I mentioned in 7.5x54 MAS, especially if I used LEE sizing lube which it looks like by the residue on the case might be. Switching to a good lanolin based lube I find to work much, much better, esp if sizing is really squeezing down the case. Night and day difference for me.

Again, after all was said and done, LEE acknowledged the issue without any waffling, did a great job explaining what they did, and I was back in business soon. Even if you might decide to only partially resize by not screwing down the die to the shellholder to a certain degree, it would still be nice to have a die be able to full length size if wanted/needed, and to make sure the neck area is not being over-sized.

Could you post up a good photo, of a good example of case bulging after firing? Is it lopsided, or symmetrical? I'm guessing lopsided. If you like, google up adding a few turns of tape around the head of the round, just above the extractor groove. This can help the case expand symmetrically on firing. See the attached photo of 7.7x58 ammo I made from 06 brass run through the resizer and never fired in the rifle, tapped up as mentioned ready to be fired to form the brass.

Out of curiosity, did you, or can you mic a case that is new and unfired that has not been sized by you, and then compared to after sizing - Be interesting to see the results. Not that this would be a completely valid substitute, but emailing PPU requesting a cartridge case dimensions drawing might be something nice to have. I did this for their 7.7x58 Japanese cases, and soon was sent the diagram.

Now about the area I circled in green:

Obviously not being there in person it looks a lot like the drawing from Hatcher's notebook, and what I originally saw as the issue... A cracked case. If you think this is an issue/the issue you are concerned about, I wonder if a prolonged 'hot oil' soak could determine cracking of the case? The case filled with a thin, kept hot oil might give you a definite answer. Maybe something as simple as paint thinner/mineral spirits w/o heat could work too.

BTW, here is a link to Hatcher's Notebook in pdf form:

https://www.tngun.com/wp-content/uploads/Hatchers-Notebook.pdf

Long rambly post... Getting older, and what my brain is thinking, does not always keep in sync with the keyboard, and I want to offer as best a help solution as possible with what I have to work with.

 

[FROGO207]

Is that problem all around the case or just locally on that side? Did you notice any bulge BEFORE you size them? I have had the same looking brass come out of a die when there was crap in the shell holder and caused the die to be sized off center. I am wondering if this is your problem. I would check the shell holder for debris in the groove as well as the press ram groove and clean them both as it could happen there. Everything has to be centered to size centered and it does not take much to mess things up.

 

[Random 8]

Reloading PRVI brass, and a load in the same ballpark in 6.5 Japanese, I get the same bulge, but not the "scratch ring". I am also loading my brass to be fired in only one rifle, so I am short sizing it, backing the die off the shell holder about 1mm. I believe PRVI is not getting the base diameter quite right, probably forming brass from an existing caliber such as 6.5x54MS or somesuch with a smaller case head diameter. I do not get the bulge with the small supply of Norma brass I have, and the case head measures a larger diameter on the Norma.

I believe what you are seeing is brass displaced by your die from the oversized area and pushing down over the undersized area and creating a small ridge or burr. If you are firing in same rifle, try backing off your sizing die a mm or so and see if you still get the little ridge of brass. Your cases should be safe to use, but I would monitor them closely for further signs of separation.

Edit to add. Looking at measurements in my Hornady book, and comparing unfired and fired/resized PRVI brass, the diameter in the case head area is significantly undersized. Diameters get more into the ballpark towards the shoulder. Comparing to some other cartridge drawings, surprisingly, .220 Swift is almost an exact match in rim, case head, and body. Now I need to look for some of that brass and see if I can form 6.5x50 from it. 6.5 MS was also close in body, but the rim was different. A couple of 5.56mm semi-rimmed obscure (in America) rounds were also very close in body and rim diameters, my guess is one of those is the parent brass or perhaps tooling for PRVI 6.5x50,

 

[Alemaniac]

Is what you call a scratch ring what I added a red line to in your photo, the area circled in green, or both? Let me explain.

The scratch ring is indicated in your red line area; the green circled area is a tarnish stain as a result of placing the casings in my ultrasonic parts cleaner to remove the water soluble lube (RCBS). I use a mix of water, Fabuloso floor cleaner, white vinegar, baking soda and cheap soda pop with phosphoric acid.

Is the horizontal feature near the red line almost like a thin belt around the case, kinda like a belted magnum case, but much less pronounced?

Yes, almost like a ridge and similar (but not exact) as to a belted magnum. It has a raised area on one side and a smaller dip on the other.

Could you post up a good photo, of a good example of case bulging after firing? Is it lopsided, or symmetrical?

Sorry, I resized all 41 cases (still have 9 unfired loaded cartridges but they all went through the full length sizer die as soon as I opened the bag of virgin brass as the necks were not perfect circles due to shipment.

Out of curiosity, did you, or can you mic a case that is new and unfired that has not been sized by you, and then compared to after sizing

Sorry I don't have any of those, but I was given a box of 20 American Eagle factory loads dated 12/87 a few months back. The brass headstamp on those indicates Norma. Not sure if that will help.

Now about the area I circled in green:
Obviously not being there in person it looks a lot like the drawing from Hatcher's notebook, and what I originally saw as the issue... A cracked case

It's actually not cracked, but appears as if the brass was "squished" while in the die and thus caused the brass to fold and wrinkle.

BTW, here is a link to Hatcher's Notebook in pdf form:

Thanks for that!

Is that problem all around the case or just locally on that side? Did you notice any bulge BEFORE you size them?

All 41 cases that I fired from my initial load all had a bulge, and they were all symmetrical. There were no bulges when I opened the PPU bag of brass.

I would check the shell holder for debris in the groove as well as the press ram groove and clean them both as it could happen there

The shellholder was included with my Lee 6.5x50 die kit and it was purchased in late December 2018. I loaded up all 50 rounds in early February 2019 and the shellholder was clean and unused at that time.

I believe what you are seeing is brass displaced by your die from the oversized area and pushing down over the undersized area and creating a small ridge or burr. If you are firing in same rifle, try backing off your sizing die a mm or so and see if you still get the little ridge of brass. Your cases should be safe to use, but I would monitor them closely for further signs of separation.

This actually makes sense on what's occurring - the oversized area is being pushed down, creating a rudge or burr. I own 2 Type 38s, but so far have only fired my nicer one using these case.

Thanks for all the replies, I think we have some facts that can help solve this mystery.

-Alemaniac