Case sizing. Full length vs neck only vs ?

[Howa 9700]

Still trying to find my way..........so going through the Lee Reloading and Hornady reloading manuals, both suggest / recommend that for best accuracy.....use neck sizing only. Just use the fire formed brass. That would be for bolt rifles, which all of mine are.

So with Lee dies, options seem to be full length resizing (which they say bumps shoulder back .001 beyond SAMMI specs) so will fit all guns. And included instructions to NEVER set them less that they say. The other die instructions are written such that if you follow the instructions, you will get the same thing. Cases that are full length sized back to SAMMI specs.

Neck sizing dies doing just that. Interesting that instructions and manuals make no mention of what happens when a neck sized case won't chamber, or is at least snug and takes some effort. Act like it never happens, which apparently is not true. Have found numerous references from some pretty good shooters to say that nobody does neck sizing only, which places them in direct conflict with the Hornady and Lee books.

So with these two options, it seems like it is either/or and nothing in between.

So then there is the 3rd option, which is to set dies to bump shoulder of fire formed cases back ever so slight.....say 1 or 2 thousands, chambers easy, yet hardly moves. Seemingly, best of both worlds.

So question is......can you do this with normal dies, or do you have to buy the competition or match grade dies with micrometer adjustments in order to accomplish this?

 

[murf]

this guy knows how to shoot.

luck,

murf

p.s. accuracy guys opinion:

 

[Howa 9700]

I've seen Eric's video........this one and many others......but I think he is using custom dies to do it.

 

[murf]

if you are planning to shoot f-class nationals, custom dies would be a good idea. a standard full length sizing die works for most people, though.

luck,

murf

 

[twarr1]

Use the Fl dies adjusted to just fit your chamber.

 

[JFrank]

Wilson sells excellent neck sizing dies, no downside in having both' however most guys end up FL sizing at some point so to keep things simple one process seems to work well. The trick is to get dies that closely match the chamber for minimum brass movement and still chamber freely.

 

[.38 Special]

For those of us who hate wading through videos: yes, the slight shoulder bump with standard FL dies can be the best of both worlds, sometimes. I wouldn't do it for cartridges which will be used for extreme accuracy, and for those which will be fired only in a single bolt-action rifle. For those I prefer dedicated neck dies. I also wouldn't do it for cartridges which need to fit any gun chambered for them. In those cases, FL resizing is called for.

In the OP's situation, though - several bolt guns which apparently are not specialized target rigs - simply winding in the standard die to give just a slight shoulder bump is exactly what I would do. The only downside of which I am aware is that the FL die probably won't give the same degree of concentricity as will a good neck die. This may reduce accuracy slightly, but normally only to a degree which would require an unusually accurate rifle to prove. For most off-the-shelf sporting and hunting rifles, there won't be enough difference to worry about, at least in my experience.

 

[Varminterror]

“Bumping” with a Full Length die is Full length sizing. Period. It’s not a 3rd option - it’s the first option done the right way.

It’s sad to hear these manuals are old enough to posit neck sizing as a leading practice at the time of their publication - and sadder if they are recent publication revisions. Neck sizing isn’t the most accurate method, period. There was a fad in the ‘90s where a bunch of magazines passed around the same BS, and unfortunately, we’re still fighting off the same misguided mythology.

Bump sizing - full length sizing with a minimum bump - is the most accurate method out there, with the least risk of feeding/chambering issues. Even using factory dies - not custom dies - the opportunity for consistency is improved by FL sizing. When neck sizing, our internal capacity changes with every firing until we’re forced to FL size just to fit back in the chamber, which of course, means our internal capacity changes again, and restarts the process... There’s nothing about neck sizing which truly improves concentricity of the ammunition, nor about concentricity of the cartridge within the chamber over bump sizing. That part is all an old wives’ tale.

I’m really looking forward to the day when we all forget the few years neck sizing was popular and can move on without seeing threads like this misleading folks into bad paths.

 

[Nature Boy]

the slight shoulder bump with standard FL dies can be the best of both worlds, sometimes. I wouldn't do it for cartridges which will be used for extreme accuracy, and for those which will be fired only in a single bolt-action rifle. For those I prefer dedicated neck dies.

The opposite actually. For best accuracy, full length every time.

Edit: I see @Varminterror beat me to it by about 10 seconds

 

[Dale Alan]

A person can try FL and neck sizing , no harm in that . If you can't shoot the difference maybe neck sizing is fine for you.

 

[Nature Boy]

A person can try FL and neck sizing , no harm in that . If you can't shoot the difference maybe neck sizing is fine for you.

That’s exactly what I did. Tried both ways. Proved to my own satisfaction which method produces the best results down range.

With that said, I should probably put my .308 and .223 neck sizing dies up for grabs in the classified section

 

[Howa 9700]

As for dated manuals, Hornady 11th, with publish date of 2021 and Lee Reloading Manual, 2nd, last updated 2019. Both praising merits of neck sizing only, which had me scratching my head, which is why I asked.

But does sound like I can adjust my standard full length dies to barely bump shoulder and get benefits of both.

Took me a while to find reference to using this partial bump with Lee full sized dies. Example given would be to set die to touch shell holder and back it out 1/8th turn. Said it would make case fit tight......but reading between the lines, seems their concern would be no different for this than a full size operation......eventually stretches case so you have to trim it.

 

[.38 Special]

“Bumping” with a Full Length die is Full length sizing. Period. It’s not a 3rd option - it’s the first option done the right way.

It’s sad to hear these manuals are old enough to posit neck sizing as a leading practice at the time of their publication - and sadder if they are recent publication revisions. Neck sizing isn’t the most accurate method, period. There was a fad in the ‘90s where a bunch of magazines passed around the same BS, and unfortunately, we’re still fighting off the same misguided mythology.

Bump sizing - full length sizing with a minimum bump - is the most accurate method out there, with the least risk of feeding/chambering issues. Even using factory dies - not custom dies - the opportunity for consistency is improved by FL sizing. When neck sizing, our internal capacity changes with every firing until we’re forced to FL size just to fit back in the chamber, which of course, means our internal capacity changes again, and restarts the process... There’s nothing about neck sizing which truly improves concentricity of the ammunition, nor about concentricity of the cartridge within the chamber over bump sizing. That part is all an old wives’ tale.

I’m really looking forward to the day when we all forget the few years neck sizing was popular and can move on without seeing threads like this misleading folks into bad paths.

My benchrest experience is admittedly a couple of decades old, but at that time the typical benchrest shooter would have eaten nightcrawlers before full length sizing his brass, and groups in the .0 something range were common enough. Is that no longer considered good accuracy?

 

[Howa 9700]

Use the Fl dies adjusted to just fit your chamber.

I may not be the brightest bulb in the box, but if a guy failed to heed that type of advice, he could qualify as the dimmest.

If those are your videos, you need to be thanked for taking the time to share your expertise. Not everyone is willing to do that.

 

[Nature Boy]

My benchrest experience is admittedly a couple of decades old, but at that time the typical benchrest shooter would have eaten nightcrawlers before full length sizing his brass, and groups in the .0 something range were common enough. Is that no longer considered good accuracy?

Yes, a lot has changed. I don’t believe there is a singe world record in any of the bench rest disciplines that has survived the last 20 or even 10 years and the general consensus of the top shooters today is that FL sizing is better than neck sizing.

Same for F Class.

 

[JFrank]

My benchrest experience is admittedly a couple of decades old, but at that time the typical benchrest shooter would have eaten nightcrawlers before full length sizing his brass, and groups in the .0 something range were common enough. Is that no longer considered good accuracy?

Im a closet neck sizer, always dreaded the unpleasant full length sizing experience using entry level/ ill fitting dies, once enlightened to the next level of dies and opportunities my reloading time
became far more enjoyable. No more worms...

 

[Slamfire]

At some number of neck sizings, the shooter will have to take a cleaning rod to knock the fired case out of the chamber. Brass work hardens and given enough neck sizing cycles, the body will stick in the chamber.

I don't remember if neck sizing was a 90's phenomena, as @Varminterror recalls, or earlier. These things just sort of creep up, become part of shooting culture, make a lot of sales, and stay around. It is all about the money you know, if industry can convince you to buy lucky shoes, which get discarded after one wearing, well, there is 300 million more suckers with money in their pocket.

Instead of neck sizing for a bolt gun, use something like this



or this



Measure the fired length of the case, and set up the full length sizing dies so the shoulder is bumped back 0.003". Works for me.

If you have a gas gun, measuring the length of a fired case is useless, because gas guns stretch cases. So just use one of these, and size to gauge minimum.



besides the neat port hole, the primary advantage to this, is that the gauge is cut to SAAMI minimum, and if your sized case sticks, you won't find out about the over size problem at the range, or at a match.

 

[Nature Boy]

At some number of neck sizings, the shooter will have to take a cleaning rod to knock the fired case out of the chamber. Brass work hardens and given enough neck sizing cycles, the body will stick in the chamber.

To your point, even the most ardent neck sizers will have to FL size their brass.

I wonder if when they eventually do FL size, do they wait until late at night, when no one’s home, with all the shads drawn and the lights turned low to perform this abomination? Do they feel dirty afterwards?

 

[Dale Alan]

If a person can't tell their case needs to be FL sized before it sticks then neck sizing may not be for them . I find if a neck sized piece of brass will let me close the bolt, it will come right back...many times easier than when it went in . Experience is the best teacher. Damn these debates and myths , and idiotic videos by some sarcastic know it all . Many uses for neck sizing dies .

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Do it however you want. Do it both ways, see what's best.

There is a third way: no sizing at all.

Mr Pope advocated just popping out the primer, reprime, throw the charge, and thumbseat the lead bullet in the fired case. Just keep shooting that one case. It's never resized.

I want one of those Pope-style moulds for .30-06. Accurate makes one.

I'll take one cartridge with me to the match. That, along with my trusty powder scoop and a hand-primer, combined with 50 lubed bullets, I'm all set.

 

[.38 Special]

Do it however you want. Do it both ways, see what's best.

There is a third way: no sizing at all.

Mr Pope advocated just popping out the primer, reprime, throw the charge, and thumbseat the lead bullet in the fired case. Just keep shooting that one case. It's never resized.

I want one of those Pope-style moulds for .30-06. Accurate makes one.

I'll take one cartridge with me to the match. That, along with my trusty powder scoop and a hand-primer, combined with 50 lubed bullets, I'm all set.

I used "fitted necks" for a while. This is a case and chamber set up so that the neck has just enough room to release the bullet. This prevents the case from changing, dimensionally, and allows for reloading without any sizing whatsoever. The downside was/is that anything - a bit of fouling, an unburned powder granule, etc. - which interferes with bullet release can skyrocket pressures.

Doubtless it's another thing we did "back in the day" which now would be met with snarky disdain.

 

[twarr1]

Hornady 11th, with publish date of 2021 and Lee Reloading Manual, 2nd, last updated 2019. Both praising merits of neck sizing only, which had me scratching my head, which is why I asked.

Hornady and Lee both sell neck sizing dies…

 

[twarr1]

@Howa 9700 , that’s a video by Randy Selby. He can be a little abrasive at times, but he’s a no BSguy and most of his advice is solid.

 

[Nature Boy]

Doubtless it's another thing we did "back in the day" which now would be met with snarky disdain.

I’m just joking. No offense meant

 

[Walkalong]

We all gravitated from neck to FL bushing style sizing when I was shooting registered Benchrest matches in the 80's

My two FL bushing style sizers for 6 PPC. Cut by my gunsmith..