Case sizing. Full length vs neck only vs ?

[JFrank]

I think Erik, although quite accomplished enjoys the controversy but really is trying to help guys shoot well. Not everyone is after peak performance, some are comfortable with minute of Deer and that's great,, the shame is the negative reaction from shooters that don't test for themselves.

 

[lightman]

Still trying to find my way..........so going through the Lee Reloading and Hornady reloading manuals, both suggest / recommend that for best accuracy.....use neck sizing only. Just use the fire formed brass. That would be for bolt rifles, which all of mine are.

So with Lee dies, options seem to be full length resizing (which they say bumps shoulder back .001 beyond SAMMI specs) so will fit all guns. And included instructions to NEVER set them less that they say. The other die instructions are written such that if you follow the instructions, you will get the same thing. Cases that are full length sized back to SAMMI specs.

Neck sizing dies doing just that. Interesting that instructions and manuals make no mention of what happens when a neck sized case won't chamber, or is at least snug and takes some effort. Act like it never happens, which apparently is not true. Have found numerous references from some pretty good shooters to say that nobody does neck sizing only, which places them in direct conflict with the Hornady and Lee books.

So with these two options, it seems like it is either/or and nothing in between.

So then there is the 3rd option, which is to set dies to bump shoulder of fire formed cases back ever so slight.....say 1 or 2 thousands, chambers easy, yet hardly moves. Seemingly, best of both worlds.

So question is......can you do this with normal dies, or do you have to buy the competition or match grade dies with micrometer adjustments in order to accomplish this?

 

[lightman]

Still trying to find my way..........so going through the Lee Reloading and Hornady reloading manuals, both suggest / recommend that for best accuracy.....use neck sizing only. Just use the fire formed brass. That would be for bolt rifles, which all of mine are.

So with Lee dies, options seem to be full length resizing (which they say bumps shoulder back .001 beyond SAMMI specs) so will fit all guns. And included instructions to NEVER set them less that they say. The other die instructions are written such that if you follow the instructions, you will get the same thing. Cases that are full length sized back to SAMMI specs.

Neck sizing dies doing just that. Interesting that instructions and manuals make no mention of what happens when a neck sized case won't chamber, or is at least snug and takes some effort. Act like it never happens, which apparently is not true. Have found numerous references from some pretty good shooters to say that nobody does neck sizing only, which places them in direct conflict with the Hornady and Lee books.

So with these two options, it seems like it is either/or and nothing in between.

So then there is the 3rd option, which is to set dies to bump shoulder of fire formed cases back ever so slight.....say 1 or 2 thousands, chambers easy, yet hardly moves. Seemingly, best of both worlds.

So question is......can you do this with normal dies, or do you have to buy the competition or match grade dies with micrometer adjustments in order to accomplish this?

You have gotten lots of advice!

My suggestion is to use a full length sizing die and to learn to properly adjust it. I hate to argue with Lee and Hornady but my experience has found little to no improvement in accuracy from neck sizing in a factory rifle. I have a few Redding die sets that have a neck sizing die as the 3rd die and it mostly just sits in the box.

I do neck size for my match rifle and a couple of varmint rifles with tight neck chambers. I have to turn the case necks and fit them to the chamber. I usually run .0015 to .001 neck wall clearance. Much too tight for a hunting rifle.

 

[Slamfire]

Unfortunately, no.

There is a lot of Voodoo in what we do.

We sometimes think we’ve gotten lucky with a certain maneuver, making errors of association...

...without having truly established “all else being equal.”

Ain't that the truth.

I lot of stuff I knew for sure, long ago, now I am pretty sure, was wrong.

 

[Rule3]

Ain't that the truth.

I lot of stuff I knew for sure, long ago, now I am pretty sure, was wrong.

View attachment 1021681

How did civilization ever progress before the internet, and Twitter?

 

[Varminterror]

So am getting vibes that this is not settled science?

It is. But too many folks do silly things and then point to groups which exceed the average “guy with a rifle in his closet,” but which would be laughed off any competitive firing line as evidence to laymen that silly things promote precision.

 

[red rick]

It is, although I did have to clean up some noise, remember, give your opinion, whatever it is, even contrary, but be nice about it, don't make it personal.

Keep up the good work , I hate reading mean arguments , especially in a good thread .

 

[Nature Boy]

There is more than one way to skin a squirrel.

Of course there are, but that doesn’t mean all the different methods yield the same outcome.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Of course there are, but that doesn’t mean all the different methods yield the same outcome.

Very true.

 

[DynoDan1]

Eric Cortina video shows his..... short sighted'ness. He's assuming everyone is running max loads.....and/or it's all about competition.

It is VERY doable to have cast loads that you can wear the brass out,with say 20 firings,and never FL size.

You just have to test and find out what's going to work with YOUR particular application. Most,when running near max loads,can "get away with" 3 or 4 firings before case grows enough to require setting the shoulder back. Another area,as some have posted above,is he's using custom dies. Great,but over the counter dies come in a full range dimensionally. So a tight die can actually make your shoulder move fwd,or backwards. Which is why you have to check.

It's a deep rabbit hole. Someone used to digging it with a backhoe needs to realize some folks are limited to a small shovel. Shooting your mouth off because you see things one way,and everyone else HAS to do it that way is fundamentally against what handloading is about,IMO.

I neck size ONLY,on some rigs.... and FL size ONLY on others.

While I find Erik Cortina to be a fine target shooter, his demeanor and attitude towards his viewers (me) is off putting. He seems to assume everybody else is an idiot and he's the only one that knows it all!

 

[Walkalong]

That is the only video of his I have seen, and I didn’t make it very far. Yep, abrasive

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

That is the only video of his I have seen, and I didn’t make it very far. Yep, abrasive

Same here.

I didn't make it through this one video, and I have no intention of finding more of his verbal abuse.

 

[Howa 9700]

I was trying to figure out what video you guys were talking about, then realized it is the one up top in this thread. I mistook that for a different one of his I had seen on the topic. He does describe this one as a rant......so it seems to live up to the billing. In his own way, Randy Selby is equally off putting, as are a lot of folks, including a guy who helps me wrench on my old tractor. But these guys know what they are doing, so when they talk, I listen.

So Cortina has a pretty big following.....for something as relatively obscure was what he does, he has 3,700 followers......which probably earns him some money from youtube. A lot of folks do things they think will draw viewers......worst in my mind are the guys who pimp their hot wives by making videos of them with no clothes on. But I digress.

It is videos like this one that attract viewers to Cortina's videos:



And to steer that back to the topic, this is the Cortina video that explains how he does his full length sizing......it has had 200,000 views in less than a year:



Having said that, it seems to me Selby's method does the pretty much the same thing, with far less effort.

 

[JFrank]

Not sure who's calling Erik's group the smallest but as far as I know Mike Wilson set that record

 

[Howa 9700]

Full title of video on youtube is "smallest 1000 yard group ever caught on camera".

When embedded here, "caught on camera" part was cropped from title. And to claim "ever", one probably has to apply additional qualifiers.....like during a match. Probably smaller groups have been shot in practice and nobody knows about it but the guy who shot it.

I found the other one more interesting.....at least for my use.

 

[Varminterror]

I’ve seen a few of Cortina’s videos which can certainly be deemed abrasive and even condescending. Much of his content is solid, however. I’ve shot a couple PRS matches with him, once in his squad and a couple on adjacent squads with substantial social intermingling (for example at Lone Star where we were cooped up in the Connex tower in the rain and under the pole shed canopy for a couple hours of lightning delay). He’s a guy... he’s not an “always on,” public media personality. Generous with info, genuinely interested in helping others succeed or at least improve, but also not terribly interested in wasting time chasing ghosts in the darkness.

But then again, I suppose I’m often described as abrasive, and as iron sharpens iron, I tend to expect most grown adults to be less emotionally sensitive than a 7 year old school girl.

I can’t say I’ve seen a single Randy Shelby video which I thought made any sense at all. Typically, they’re random bitch sessions by a stodgy old man with far narrower life experience than he’ll (gladly) tell you he’s had.

 

[AJC1]

Reloading is an experience based activity and you will defer to the practice that gives you the best results. The situation you enter this learning experience will matter a lot by which you make a final decision. A dangerous game hunt could not be more different that a 1k yard bench rest match. The accuracy requirements of both activities is vastly different, along with the needed end result. The primary activity of the person providing guidance will drive their experience. As an example the varmit shooter in my experience is a high volume reloader who needs very good accuracy but a feeding issue is a minor annoyance that can be easily moved past. A bear hunter is a very low volume shooter where a failure to feed and function can be downright dangerous. It would be disingenuous to say the varmit hunters ways are best for the bear hunter. Filter the advice you receive into the discipline you participate in.