BoltLover
Member
I'll give that a shot also I'll do whatever it takes to get it right.
Cast Bullets - load data availability. (problems with tumbling and accuracy).
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BoltLover
Member
I'll be loading up several loads on Thursday once I fire those I'll give you guys results and pictures of targets I'll also try to reclaim some lead to look at.
[email protected]
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I also struggled with 9mm when I first started casting for it. Like may others I have several 9mm pistols and I didn't want to make a custom load for each of them. I usually just plink with my 9mm pistols and minute of pie plate accuracy is acceptable. What I did want was 100% function with little to no barrel leading. What I learned was to go big on the diameter of the bullet. A .358 diameter bullet would chamber in all my 9mm pistols. I set the seating depth for the tightest chamber using the time tested plunk test. I ditched the Lee factory crimp die and the Lee TL design bullet (you can TL non TL designes if needed). I started using slower HP38 powder vs faster tightgroup and bullseye ( I since went back to Bullseye with sucess). I started using a Lyman M die to expand and flare my cases. And finally I cleaned their bores really good using chore boy wrapped around a bore brushing to remove any traces of lead and copper fouling. Check out NOE Bulletmolds site. I dont recall what die set you are using, but he makes Lyman type expanders that work in Lee dies.
You didnt say if you noticed any leading in your barrel. My best guess is that it the load is leading the barrel. In your tests you found that increasing the charge resulted in worse accuracy. My best guess is that the bullet is too small and striping through the rifleing. The hard heat treated alloy isn't expanding enough to grip the rifleing, or seal the bore. You most likely have gas cutting your bullet causing even more leading. Hardness is not everything in this game. Super hard bullets are for commerical casters trying to sell a product. Bullet fit is king. I have ran pure lead in my 40S&W, with no ill effects such as leading, when I was working up an alloy for my HP mold. My general purpose handgun alloy is straight wheel weight alloy air cooled.
You didnt say if you noticed any leading in your barrel. My best guess is that it the load is leading the barrel. In your tests you found that increasing the charge resulted in worse accuracy. My best guess is that the bullet is too small and striping through the rifleing. The hard heat treated alloy isn't expanding enough to grip the rifleing, or seal the bore. You most likely have gas cutting your bullet causing even more leading. Hardness is not everything in this game. Super hard bullets are for commerical casters trying to sell a product. Bullet fit is king. I have ran pure lead in my 40S&W, with no ill effects such as leading, when I was working up an alloy for my HP mold. My general purpose handgun alloy is straight wheel weight alloy air cooled.
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clearcut
Member
Powder coating can add to the size I do it so my .311's fit in my 7.65 that [email protected] the PC brings them up to 3.15-3.16 they got on point of aim/target. With PC you may fit your barrel better.
CC
CC
BoltLover
Member
OK! So I got home from work and slugged the barrel of one of my guns. I decided to slug it with, first a pure lead .356" bullet i cast. Then just for comparison I slugged it with a slug I poured into a fired case. Both slugs read .354.5". So if I do not quench, harden or size the .356" bullets they should work right? I may have gotten ahead of myself with the whole hardening deal, That could possibly be the problem. I'm loading up some softer lead now to test out on thursday (seeing that it's dark when I leave for work and when I get home this time of year). WOW i'ts been awhile since I've loaded on a single stage press.
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GooseGestapo
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Bolt Lover;
I use that same mold and bullet and get ~2" groups at 50yds from my S&W Perf. ctr guns.
However I do the following:
1. I use aircooled w/w with ~2% added "lead-free solder" as sold at hardware/plumbing supply stores. It's 95%Tin and 5% Antimony.
2. I size to .357" with Lee push-through sizer die. Or alternatively, I use a Lyman #450 sizer/lubricator to size/lube them with SPG to .357"
3. I use 5.2gr of Hod. LongShot powder. From the 6"bbl gun these run ~1,220fps. Not HOT but not squibs either.
at the volumn of loading I do, heat-treating is too much... Not needed if diameter and alloy is correct.
I don't get much better results than you do with Bullseye or other fast burning powders (Win231, Titegroup,RedDot,WinSuperTarget,ect).
Unique, Win.SuperField, Universal, and PowerPistol have given me better 9mm results. Also, filling the lube groove with SPG is the difference between range-"burners" and match ammo.
As others stated, the 9mm can be a challenge with cast bullets.
Try posting/joining www.cast-boolits.com
I use that same mold and bullet and get ~2" groups at 50yds from my S&W Perf. ctr guns.
However I do the following:
1. I use aircooled w/w with ~2% added "lead-free solder" as sold at hardware/plumbing supply stores. It's 95%Tin and 5% Antimony.
2. I size to .357" with Lee push-through sizer die. Or alternatively, I use a Lyman #450 sizer/lubricator to size/lube them with SPG to .357"
3. I use 5.2gr of Hod. LongShot powder. From the 6"bbl gun these run ~1,220fps. Not HOT but not squibs either.
at the volumn of loading I do, heat-treating is too much... Not needed if diameter and alloy is correct.
I don't get much better results than you do with Bullseye or other fast burning powders (Win231, Titegroup,RedDot,WinSuperTarget,ect).
Unique, Win.SuperField, Universal, and PowerPistol have given me better 9mm results. Also, filling the lube groove with SPG is the difference between range-"burners" and match ammo.
As others stated, the 9mm can be a challenge with cast bullets.
Try posting/joining www.cast-boolits.com
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35 Whelen
Member
You need to start with your alloy. Lead and antimony only ain't gonna cut it. You need tin to help with mould fill-out. If you can get your hands on some wheelweights, they're usually just about the perfect hardness for most applications.
You can slug your bore, but I rarely bother as it's just too easy to size .001" or .002" over standard groove diameter. But if you're shooting bullets from a Lee tumble lube mould, they're not intended to be sized.
I recently had a a Charter Arms Bulldog acting the same way due to very shallow rifling so I tried water quenching the bullets as they dropped from the mould, which hardens them to around 20 Bhn, and the problem went away.
If it were me I'd head over to the Cast Boolit site and seen if someone will sell or give you a few different 9mm bullets to try.
35W
You can slug your bore, but I rarely bother as it's just too easy to size .001" or .002" over standard groove diameter. But if you're shooting bullets from a Lee tumble lube mould, they're not intended to be sized.
I recently had a a Charter Arms Bulldog acting the same way due to very shallow rifling so I tried water quenching the bullets as they dropped from the mould, which hardens them to around 20 Bhn, and the problem went away.
If it were me I'd head over to the Cast Boolit site and seen if someone will sell or give you a few different 9mm bullets to try.
35W
BoltLover
Member
So what's a convenient source for tin.
35 Whelen
Member
Plumbing solder. But like I said WW's are just about a.perfect alloy. You can get them on eBay or the Cast Boolit site already ingotized worth the money.
35W
35W
BoltLover
Member
Sweet thanks
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Boltlover,
the MBCs 125 cones are listed at .356 the couple I measured seem to agree with the listed size.
Some are on the way for you to try. They are listed as BHN 18
The loads I listed as likeing earlier were what I would call lower mid - mid range.
3.7 Bullseye
4.3 Unique
Favorite load 3.8 -3.9 Universal Clays, but there is none to be had right now.
1.11 OAL with the MBC cone.
But both Bullseye and Unique worked. I would lean towards Bullseye.
No noticible leading with either.
Bore is somewhat dirty after 300 rounds but what can you expect.
Sorry I did not get you the size quicker.
These seem to shoot well in both my pistols so I am curious to see if they work for you, hope they do.
the MBCs 125 cones are listed at .356 the couple I measured seem to agree with the listed size.
Some are on the way for you to try. They are listed as BHN 18
The loads I listed as likeing earlier were what I would call lower mid - mid range.
3.7 Bullseye
4.3 Unique
Favorite load 3.8 -3.9 Universal Clays, but there is none to be had right now.
1.11 OAL with the MBC cone.
But both Bullseye and Unique worked. I would lean towards Bullseye.
No noticible leading with either.
Bore is somewhat dirty after 300 rounds but what can you expect.
Sorry I did not get you the size quicker.
These seem to shoot well in both my pistols so I am curious to see if they work for you, hope they do.
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BoltLover
Member
Thank you sir I will try all of this. And thanks for the bullets.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Your welcome.
BoltLover
Member
Did you receive the dies.
BoltLover
Member
By the way it's cold outside here lol. Got a chance to throw some lead today (meaning I ran outside shot 10 rounds and ran back in). It seems 4.7gr unique seems to shoot pretty good I had no tumbling, although I still have accuracy to work on.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Dies
Yep, got them, thanks.
I have also used 4.6 grains of Unique behind the MBC 125 gr bullet.
Yep, got them, thanks.
I have also used 4.6 grains of Unique behind the MBC 125 gr bullet.
30Cal
Member
You can also "beagle" the mold--basically shim it at the pins with a strip of cheap (thin) aluminum foil. I had to do that for a friend's 9mm. 1-1.5 thousandths added. Doesn't sound like you need to do that though....
A tiny bit of tin goes a long way. I add a dab only when the bullets stop filling out consistently.
A tiny bit of tin goes a long way. I add a dab only when the bullets stop filling out consistently.
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grubbylabs
Member
I would not get to carried away with how hard your bullets are. As stated before, straight WW will work perfectly for most shooting.
Also as stated, size is king, if they are not sized right, there is nothing else you can do to over come an undersized bullet.
I am not sure any one could ever push a 9mil bullet hard enough to justify 18 or higher BHN. Like it was said straight WW is fine. And they are usually in the 12-13 range.
Also as stated earlier, the castboolits web site is a most valuable source of information. They are the casting people.
Also as stated, size is king, if they are not sized right, there is nothing else you can do to over come an undersized bullet.
I am not sure any one could ever push a 9mil bullet hard enough to justify 18 or higher BHN. Like it was said straight WW is fine. And they are usually in the 12-13 range.
Also as stated earlier, the castboolits web site is a most valuable source of information. They are the casting people.
BoltLover
Member
OK mission accomplished. Head spacing on one pistol was an issue with un-sized bullets. Also O.A.L. of 1.11" would touch the rifling, So i moved all loads to an O.A.L. of 1.10". I have found that for my guns, (This is not published data). 5.2 gr. Unique and 4.6 gr. Bullseye provide the best results. With Unique being the cleanest burn, Not that Bullseye was bad! Just a touch dirtier it seems. Grouping 50 cent sized holes at 25 yards...I am satisfied. If anyone wants target pics or any other info I may have PLEASE feel free to P.M. me. I can send pics to your phone, I have issues trying to put them up on here for some reason. Also I want to mention my second batch of cast bullets used in this (epic struggle) were only drop cooled, not baked. BHN approx. 12. Sized to .356 with a lee sizing die kit and alox lubed. Thanks to everyone for your very informative help and patience.
BOLT
BOLT
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BoltLover
Member
Also I have to thank the inventor of the ear plug, As I still have them in cause my wife is still nagging me for being out back shooting for three hours on Thanksgiving. You all are a great group of guys!
SPECIAL THANKS TO: rcmodel, Dudedog, 35Whelen and clearcut.
BOLT
SPECIAL THANKS TO: rcmodel, Dudedog, 35Whelen and clearcut.
BOLT
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BoltLover
Member
thanks for your help also, Horseman
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Your welcome.
Glad you got it worked out.
Glad you got it worked out.
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