Am I correct in my alloying plan for Pedersoli Sharps replica rifle cast bullets?

[JimGnitecki]

I am planning to cast 500g .459" and .460" bullets for use in my Pedersoli Sharps rifle.

I want to ensure good obturation, especially since the Pedersoli barrels apparently taper a bit from chamber end of the barrel to the muzzle.

The 5744 powder "Trapdoor" load that I intend to ladder test shows a maximum pressure of just 16,100 psi.

The crib sheet that comes with a Lee Hardness Tester suggests that for a maximum pressure that low, the Brinell Hardness number should be about 12.5.

I have available Lyman No. 2 ingots (I lucked out at a local metal salvage yard that had 15 lb) that are apaprently BHN = 14.7. I also have Hornady swaged .357 Magnum bullets that are pure lead or very darn close to pure (They are so soft that the Lee Hardness Tester crib sheet does not go to an indent size large enough - that crib sheet stops at a .079" indent which corresponds to BHN = 8.0)

Using an online Excel worksheet that shows the typically found lead alloys and their BHNs, and allows you to calculate the BHN of any lead bullet alloy using the formula:
BHN = 8.6 + 0.29 x %Tin + 0.92 x %Antimony

That worksheet and formula seems to suggest that if I combine:
3 lb of the Lyman No.2 (5% Tin, 5% Antimony, 90% Lead)
1.6 lb of pure Lead Hornady bullets

I will end up with a BHN of 12.5, and enough Lead to theoretically cast 4.6 lb x 7000g per lb / 500g per bullet = 64 bullets. I only need 45 bullets for the initial ladder test, but the extra poundage of Lead will keep the melting pot from running dry and enable me to create some bad bullets while I dial in the correct successful casting process.

The Tin and Antimony percentages will be diluted from 5% to 3.3%, but that is still enough Tin to fill out the mould, right?

To those of you who are experienced bullet casters: Does this sound correct to you?

p.s. I realize that 5744 in a Pedersoli rated for over 30,000 psi can be loaded much hotter, but I would like to first try the 16,100 pis Trapdoor load because:
- That's what the U.S. Calvary and buffalo hunters actually had to work with back in the day, and they made it work
- The recoil of that rifle with even a mild 405g @ 1250 fps load was pretty strong, even with a recoil pad, and I am not into unnecessary self-harm!

Jim G

 

[.38 Special]

The alloy should be about right - although still a little harder than really required - but you'll likely find that as you get down to the dregs in the pot you'll end up with a lot more weight variance and inclusions in your bullets. When making precision bullets I like to keep the pot at least half full. In your shoes I would double (at a minimum) the amount of alloy you initially begin with.

 

[jmorris]

Have you cast any bullets with the mold yet?

Pure lead will drop heavy from a mold designed for harder lead. For example a 230 grain pistol mold drops 240 grain bullets with pure lead. A mold intended for pure lead will drop light with harder alloy mix.

 

[JimGnitecki]

The alloy should be about right - although still a little harder than really required - but you'll likely find that as you get down to the dregs in the pot you'll end up with a lot more weight variance and inclusions in your bullets. When making precision bullets I like to keep the pot at least half full. In your shoes I would double (at a minimum) the amount of alloy you initially begin with.

Ah, good to know. I WILL increase the total weight in the pot! I assume that after finishing casting, you simply drop the rest of the molten lead through the drop valve into ingot moulds?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Have you cast any bullets with the mold yet?

Pure lead will drop heavy from a mold designed for harder lead. For example a 230 grain pistol mold drops 240 grain bullets with pure lead. A mold intended for pure lead will drop light with harder alloy mix.

I actually have 2 moulds that are quite different:

One mould is brand NEW, a 500g Lyman IRON mould, that I assume I need to prep before casting.

The 2nd mould is a USED one, 485g Lee ALUMINUM, smoked, and lubricated by the kind forum member who mailed it to me as a gift to get started with my casting.

Will an alloy targeting BHN = 12.5 produce lighter weights than the 500g and 485g noted above?

For a novice bullet caster, would the 485g be "easier" to start with because it is already prepped?

Jim G

 

[MEHavey]

...simply drop the rest of the molten lead through the drop valve into ingot moulds?

Just pick up the whole thing and pour it back into the ingot mold.
Better yet, just leave it cooled down in the furnace/ready for next time.

...mould is brand NEW, a 500g Lyman IRON mould, that I assume I need to prep before casting.

No prep required. Just scrub/rinse it 3X with a toothbrush/dish soap,
and dry/preheat in Dutch-oven/hotplate while lead is heating up.
First bullet will be perfect bullet.
See: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6814751&postcount=16

.

 

[reddog81]

Do you have a Lee 20 lbs pot?

I stop casting once my Lee 20 lbs pot gets below 1/4 of the way full. At this point the lead stream gets more erratic and starts to dribble out rather than flow. I wouldn’t recommend starting with less than 10 lbs in the pot. Starting with 4 lbs in the pot is going to leave you with a bunch of frustration and reject bullets.

I just leave the balance in the pot and often time throw in an extra WW ingot to help keep the pot full. It’s much easier to get the pot warmed up if it’s full.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Do you have a Lee 20 lbs pot?

I stop casting once my Lee 20 lbs pot gets below 1/4 of the way full. At this point the lead stream gets more erratic and starts to dribble out rather than flow. I wouldn’t recommend starting with less than 10 lbs in the pot. Starting with 4 lbs in the pot is going to leave you with a bunch of frustration and reject bullets.

I just leave the balance in the pot and often time throw in an extra WW ingot to help keep the pot full. It’s much easier to get the pot warmed up if it’s full.

I actually have a Lyman Mag 25, so 25 lb capacity. I will heed the advice to start with a LOT more than the 4.6 lb I had initially thought. My reason for planning the low weight was in case I messed up on my bledning ratio, I wanted to have enough of the Lyman Lead left over unblended to try again. But if I need more wieght in the pot to ensure a consistent flow out of the valve, I'll drop that idea and go much heavier on my first session.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Just pick up the whole thing and pour it back into the ingot mold.
Better yet, just leave it cooled down in the furnace/ready for next time.
No prep required. Just scrub/rinse it 3X with a toothbrush/dish soap,
and dry/preheat in Dutch-oven/hotplate while lead is heating up.
First bullet will be perfect bullet.
See: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6814751&postcount=16

.

1. So it is ok to let the molten lead in a pot cool and harden in the pot, and just reheat it next time you want to cast? It won't damage the drop valve in any way (via expansion / contraction when heated or cooling)?

2. Doesn't a brand new mould, whether iron or aluminum, need lubrication of the sprue pivot bolt and the alignment pins before using it?

Jim G

 

[MEHavey]

1. I dipper-pour (have done so for > 50 years), but see no reason that the drop valve will be in any way affected by re-melting.lead cooled in the pot.

2. I run iron moulds (and a few aluminum) but have never experienced the need to lubricate the sprue plate pivot/alignment pins.
Quite the opposite: Lube tends to migrate into the cavity and there's the devil to pay. Dry cleanliness is next to godliness.
(I will admit opinions vary -- but can only speak my own/experience)


.

 

[JimGnitecki]

1. I dipper-pour (have done so for > 50 years), but see no reason that the drop valve will be in any way affected by re-melting.lead cooled in the pot.

2. I run iron moulds (and a few aluminum) but have never experienced the need to lubricate the sprue plate pivot/alignment pins.
Quite the opposite: Lube tends to migrate into the cavity and there's the devil to pay. Dry cleanliness is next to godliness.


.

Apparently the Lee ALUMINUM moulds DO require lubrication. Lee says in their instructions in the book that Richard Lee himself wrote that they will be "ruined very quickly" if not lubricated SPARINGLY on the sprue pivot bolt and the alignment pins. Apparently, he said, the aluminum will gall if not lubricated. He did warn though NOT to go overbpard - just a "drop" of lubricant - so as not to get it INTO the mould itself (As you warned above).

But on iron moulds, I have not yet read the Lyman instructions that were tucked in with the brand new Lyman iron mould.

Jim G

 

[.38 Special]

I almost always let the alloy cool in the pot, and have never had any issues. There's nothing wrong with pouring the rest into ingot molds, of course, either through the spout or right over the side of the pot. It's just more work, and I'm pretty lazy.

I usually lube the sprue plate pivot, but have forgotten to do it often enough that I kind of doubt that it does any harm. It is absolutely true, though, that if you overdo it and the lube ends up in the cavity, you have a giant headache.

And you're still overthinking all of this.

 

[JimGnitecki]

. . .

And you're still overthinking all of this.

Maybe, but better to do that than to ruin a mould or a melting pot, or through ignorance create a safety or health hazard. I don't mind doing the extra research and and asking of questions - it's part of the process for me in any new undertaking.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

I shoot 357 mag full tilt out of a carbine at 35kpsi and full velosity at bhn 12. For your load, that pressure is standard 45acp that I run about 9bhn. I think for this testing a goal bhn of 10 would give you wiggle room on both sides and work wonderful. Molds are generally calibrated for drop weight using Lyman #2 around bhn 15-16 so either way your going to end up heavy and smaller. The fit is the most important factor so getting big enough bullets with more antimony may be your driving factor.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I shoot 357 mag full tilt out of a carbine at 35kpsi and full velosity at bhn 12. For your load, that pressure is standard 45acp that I run about 9bhn. I think for this testing a goal bhn of 10 would give you wiggle room on both sides and work wonderful. Molds are generally calibrated for drop weight using Lyman #2 around bhn 15-16 so either way your going to end up heavy and smaller. The fit is the most important factor so getting big enough bullets with more antimony may be your driving factor.

I plan to powder coat using the shake and bake method. That will add a couple of thousandths to the as-cast diameter. Then, I plan to size in a Lee sizer with a .459" or .460" sizing die (depending on what the gunsmith doing the barrel slugging finds is the barrel groove diameter). i'm told that the cured powder coating is so tough that it not only survives the trips through the sizer and then the barrel, but it also stays on the bullet Lead even when the bullet is hammered into a flat blob! So, I don't think the bullets CAN end up undersize.

Am I mistaken on this?

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

I plan to powder coat using the shake and bake method. That will add a couple of thousandths to the as-cast diameter. Then, I plan to size in a Lee sizer with a .459" or .460" sizing die (depending on what the gunsmith doing the barrel slugging finds is the barrel groove diameter). i'm told that the cured powder coating is so tough that it not only survives the trips through the sizer and then the barrel, but it also stays on the bullet Lead even when the bullet is hammered into a flat blob! So, I don't think the bullets CAN end up undersize.

Am I mistaken on this?

Jim G

It should be a fool proof plan, but I never tempt fate like that. I like a very thin coat to keep the edges sharp and well defined on my boolits. When I coat I put them in a wire basket and shake off the excess. I quench them out of the oven so I can size immediately. Wet bullets size just fine and I dry the die out after. I also water drop all cast boolits because I don't want to wait a few weeks to size them. If you air cool it takes a wile for them to harden....

 

[JimGnitecki]

It should be a fool proof plan, but I never tempt fate like that. I like a very thin coat to keep the edges sharp and well defined on my boolits. When I coat I put them in a wire basket and shake off the excess. I quench them out of the oven so I can size immediately. Wet bullets size just fine and I dry the die out after. I also water drop all cast boolits because I don't want to wait a few weeks to size them. If you air cool it takes a wile for them to harden....

I realize water quenching would speed up the hardening process for the cast bullets, but it would also make them harder than they would otherwise end up, and that works against my objective of ending up with the softer bullets that my Pedersoli apparently needs. I do like the idea of using water as a lubricant in the sizing process though. And I see the importance of drying out the sizing die afterwards to prevent its corrosion by residual water.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

I realize water quenching would speed up the hardening process for the cast bullets, but it would also make them harder than they would otherwise end up, and that works against my objective of ending up with the softer bullets that my Pedersoli apparently needs. I do like the idea of using water as a lubricant in the sizing process though. And I see the importance of drying out the sizing die afterwards to prevent its corrosion by residual water.

Jim G

As with loading, casting is it's own animal and my process was developed by a long list of screwups.... the really nice part about casting is the only loss is time. A junk case is useless. A screwed up bullet is just material for the next batch.

 

[MEHavey]

Apparently the Lee ALUMINUM moulds DO require lubrication. Lee says

Since LEE mould have different materials for the sprue plate/blocks, go ahead and put a toothpick-end's (no more) worth of synthetic motor oil on the pivot pin.
(Iron moulds don't have this problem -- or reqm't)

And unless you plan to repeatedly slam the LEE mould blocks closed with prejudice -- stay away from oil on the alignment pins.

Rule of thumb for both if coming out of storage with oil or preservative: Toothbrush/Dishsoap/Pre-Heat.
(Don't overthink things beyond that)

 

[jmorris]

Will an alloy targeting BHN = 12.5 produce lighter weights than the 500g and 485g noted above?

For a novice bullet caster, would the 485g be "easier" to start with because it is already prepped?

I don’t know the answer to that, why I asked if you had cast any yet. I generally like working with iron molds because I have used them more but I would smoke either and just get started learning by doing.

On bottom pour, I keep a metal “cup” under the valve while it’s heating up the lead, to catch dribbles, until it’s all melted.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Since LEE mould have different materials for the sprue plate/blocks, go ahead and put a toothpick-end's (no more) worth of synthetic motor oil on the pivot pin.
(Iron moulds don't have this problem -- or reqm't)

And unless you plan to repeatedly slam the LEE mould blocks closed with prejudice -- stay away from oil on the alignment pins.

Rule of thumb for both if coming out of storage with oil or preservative: Toothbrush/Dishsoap/Pre-Heat.
(Don't overthink things beyond that)

Interestingly, in the online pdf instructions for their moulds, Lyman says that you can avoid needing to apply preservative (anti-corrosion) oil to the mould for storage between casting sessions, if you store the mould inside a box (e.g. the box it arrives in new) along with a desiccant, in a location that is reliably dry. I think a gun safe with an electric rod heater in it to protect the firearms qualifies, as does our air conditioned home in our dry (14" of rain annually) climate. So, I think I will do a one-time toothbrush with dishsoap in water cleaning, then place the mould into the pre-heated toaster oven at about 200 degrees to dry it, and then cool it to room temperature, lightly lube the sprue pivot with bees wax, pack it in its box, and store it in the gun safe until I am ready to use it. Sound ok?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I don’t know the answer to that, why I asked if you had cast any yet. I generally like working with iron molds because I have used them more but I would smoke either and just get started learning by doing.

On bottom pour, I keep a metal “cup” under the valve while it’s heating up the lead, to catch dribbles, until it’s all melted.

The metal receptacle underneath the pot valve to catch dribbles sounds like a good idea. Thank-you!

Jim G

 

[MEHavey]

Lyman says that you can avoid needing to apply preservative (anti-corrosion) oil to the
mould for storage between casting sessions,

I keep my moulds stored dry inside the house standard 70dgr/45% humidity environment.
No preservatives/oils for years unless that condition changes or I'm going to pack away
for a move.
(YMMV of course -- swamp coolers in Albuquerque/base housing in coastal Florida produce different worlds)

 

[J-Bar]

I have no experience with Lyman or other steel molds. I have heard that some casters simply leave the last pour in the mold for long term storage, as a way to prevent contamination of the mold cavities. I assume they cut off the sprue as usual but leave the cavities filled. I've never done this with my Lee molds, but don't see how it could harm anything. Just passing on a rumor!!

 

[AJC1]

I have no experience with Lyman or other steel molds. I have heard that some casters simply leave the last pour in the mold for long term storage, as a way to prevent contamination of the mold cavities. I assume they cut off the sprue as usual but leave the cavities filled. I've never done this with my Lee molds, but don't see how it could harm anything. Just passing on a rumor!!

They leave the sprue in place to hold the plate in place.....