Am I correct in my alloying plan for Pedersoli Sharps replica rifle cast bullets?

[JimGnitecki]

Lyman's latest online instructions say NOT to leave a bullet casting inside the mould as a corrosion preventative. They say it does not provide corrosion protection long term.

Jim G

 

[Jim Watson]

Temperature and humidity fluctuations can creep around that bullet and leave you a rusty mold,

 

[JimGnitecki]

I washed the Lyman mould today really well with a Dawn dishsoap solution and toothbrush, rinsed it, dried it with a cotton, and then baked it at 250 degrees in my powder coating toaster oven to get any hidden moisture out. Then put it back in its Lyman plastic box, and put it inside the gun safe where there is a Golden Rod heater on 24 hours per day.

I noticed that the iron mould is "blue" in colour. My buddy tells me that this a "blued" finish to help protect against corrosion.

Jim G

 

[Jim Watson]

NOT NECESSARILY RECOMMENDED

I have HEARD of breaking in an iron mold by stripping that blue off, applying cold blue, stripping that off, repeating until the mild chemical action has smoothed out the fine but sharp cherry marks.

I did NOT have to do anything so odd to my .38-55-335 mold, it cast ok as soon as it was clean and hot. Preheating save a lot of time and reject bullets.

 

[Chief TC]

I don't cast but shoot BPCR with lots of folks with Pedersolis and Shilohs. If you size your 500gr bullets at .460, then your hardness level is not much of an issue. It can be on the soft end or the hard end of BHN. However, I will say they prefer 16-1 alloy.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I don't cast but shoot BPCR with lots of folks with Pedersolis and Shilohs. If you size your 500gr bullets at .460, then your hardness level is not much of an issue. It can be on the soft end or the hard end of BHN. However, I will say they prefer 16-1 alloy.

Hmm. The expression "16 to 1" generally is taken to mean 16 parts Lead and 1 part Tin, or about 94% Lead and about 6% Tin. No antimony. Such an alloy apparently has a hardness of BHN = 11. Per the Lee Hardness Tester crib sheet supplied with the Lee tool, BHN 11 can handle only 15,700 psi. Lee recommends that you keep the peak pressure of your handload to 10% under the maximum psi the alloy can handle with yielding, so the peak pressure for a BHN 11 alloy is then about 14,100 psi.

But I am using Accurate 5744 powder. The load tables I have found for that powder with a 500g lead cast bullet call for minimum loads of 20.2g producing as much as15,900 psi (per Hodgdon's load table for Accurate 5744).

For a 15,900 peak psi load, Lee recommends a BHN of about 12.5. Hence my target BHN of 12.5.

For higher velocity 500g loads, still with Trapdoor level peak pressures no higher than about 18,800 psi, the Lee crib sheet suggests a BHN in the high 14s, close to BHN 15, which is pretty much Lyman Alloy No. 2, which consists of 5% Tin, 5% Antimony, and 90% Lead. The Antimony is what spikes the hardness in Lyman Alloy No. 2.

Most recerational shooters probably settle for the Lyman Alloy No.2 because even Lyman itself says this will work reasonably well in most shooting (i.e. for shooters in the central part of the bell curve not looking for either notably softer for low pressure loads or notably harder for high pressure loads). But, shooters shooting high pressure Magnums, etc are going to go higher on BHN to avoid any possibility of leading, while shooters shooting 1800s type rifles and handguns are going to go lower on BHN to ensure bullet obturation, especially in barrels on the high side of barrel diameter, to get better accuracy.

In fact, many shooters of "buffalo rifles", especially the Pedersoli models, suggest an alloy that is JUST hard enough to not lead the barrel, and up to .002" larger in diameter than the groove depth in the rifling of the barrel. The soft alloy helps the bullet to obturate easier for a snug accurate fit. Since I am going to the trouble of casting my own bullets, and want to try shooting the Pedersoli at up to 600 yards (the max range distance at my home range), THAT is what I am intending to go for!

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

Hmm. The expression "16 to 1" generally is taken to mean 16 parts Lead and 1 part Tin, or about 94% Lead and about 6% Tin. No antimony. Such an alloy apparently has a hardness of BHN = 11. Per the Lee Hardness Tester crib sheet supplied with the Lee tool, BHN 11 can handle only 15,700 psi. Lee recommends that you keep the peak pressure of your handload to 10% under the maximum psi the alloy can handle with yielding, so the peak pressure for a BHN 11 alloy is then about 14,100 psi.

But I am using Accurate 5744 powder. The load tables I have found for that powder with a 500g lead cast bullet call for minimum loads of 20.2g producing as much as15,900 psi (per Hodgdon's load table for Accurate 5744).

For a 15,900 peak psi load, Lee recommends a BHN of about 12.5. Hence my target BHN of 12.5.

For higher velocity 500g loads, still with Trapdoor level peak pressures no higher than about 18,800 psi, the Lee crib sheet suggests a BHN in the high 14s, close to BHN 15, which is pretty much Lyman Alloy No. 2, which consists of 5% Tin, 5% Antimony, and 90% Lead. The Antimony is what spikes the hardness in Lyman Alloy No. 2.

Most recerational shooters probably settle for the Lyman Alloy No.2 because even Lyman itself says this will work reasonably well in most shooting (i.e. for shooters in the central part of the bell curve not looking for either notably softer for low pressure loads or notably harder for high pressure loads). But, shooters shooting high pressure Magnums, etc are going to go higher on BHN to avoid any possibility of leading, while shooters shooting 1800s type rifles and handguns are going to go lower on BHN to ensure bullet obturation, especially in barrels on the high side of barrel diameter, to get better accuracy.

In fact, many shooters of "buffalo rifles", especially the Pedersoli models, suggest an alloy that is JUST hard enough to not lead the barrel, and up to .002" larger in diameter than the groove depth in the rifling of the barrel. The soft alloy helps the bullet to obturate easier for a snug accurate fit. Since I am going to the trouble of casting my own bullets, and want to try shooting the Pedersoli at up to 600 yards (the max range distance at my home range), THAT is what I am intending to go for!

Jim G

OK I'll play, what does bullet yielding mean and what is the pressure for proper opteration of the base of your bullet. I further question using a crib sheet used for lubed bare lead with powder coated bullets. One person called it a soft jacket, I'm keen on that being a fairly accurate assessment.

 

[PapaG]

If your barrel is "taper" or "choke" bored, that helps immensely in obturatuon as it gets progressively brighter towards the muzzle.
I used pretty much pure lead in my BPC rolling block 45-70 and had no leading.
Duplex load just like the turn of the century scheutzen masters.

 

[JimGnitecki]

OK I'll play, what does bullet yielding mean and what is the pressure for proper opteration of the base of your bullet. I further question using a crib sheet used for lubed bare lead with powder coated bullets. One person called it a soft jacket, I'm keen on that being a fairly accurate assessment.

Basically, Lee says that if your load potentially develops a peak pressure high enough to hit the yield point of the alloy you used to cast the bullet, the metal "yields" and can no longer prevent blow-by and leading. So, Lee recommends you stay about 10% below the yield pressure, where you suppsoedly get good obturation without the risk of leading.

As for how a (good) powder coating behaves under pressure: The various attempted destructive processes tried by shooters who powder coat suggest that the powder coating is NOT hard or brittle. Rather it is a polymer that binds aggressively on a molecular level to both itself and the metal it has been applied onto, and it remains FLEXIBLE. Even on bullets that have been pounded down almost flat with a hammer, the powder coating on the resulting "blob" is STILL UNfractured.

You cannot treat a powder coated bullet the same as a metal jacketed bullet. The level of friction between the jacketed bullet and the polymer powder coated bullet are on two different planets. A jacketed bullet stuck in a barrel has to be pushed out via a hammer hitting repeatedly, hard, on a metal rod. A low-BHN cast lead bullet can apparently be pushed out with a WOODEN dowel.

And, you can apparently SIZE a powder coated bullet in a regular sizing setup (like the Lee sizer) without fracturing or scraping off the powder coating. This apparently makes it possible to coat a bullet that casts as , for example, .459" diameter, powder coat it (adding maybe .002" or more to the diameter), and then size it down to either .459" or .460", without disturbing the coating!

So, in essence, a good powder coat is more like a flexible but VERY durable "sleeve" within which the bullet shape can actually be altered without destroying the integrity of the coating, which continues to prevent blowby and the resulting leading of the barrel. And, it does not build up in your seating die (and on everything else it touches).

One obvious attraction is that if your load's BHN is borderline or worse in terms of resistance to leading, the powder coating appears to be far more robust than a typical bullet lubricant. That gives a reloader more flexibility and more room for error on the BHN.

Yes, this does all sound "too good to be true", but since shooters all over The World (it started in Australia) have been doing it for over a decade, I guess it is considered "proven", so I intend to try it myself.

Notice that the traditional makers and suppliers of bullet lubricants and the tools used to apply them don't talk about powder coating. That's NOT because they can cite any problems with it (unless someone uses an inappropriate or low quality powder). It's because they don't SELL powders or powder tools and equipment, so even mentioning powder would potentially divert prospectives buyers away from their offerings.

Anyway, within a few weeks, I'll be able to test the claims in person. The Linotype I will "dilute" with low-Antimony and/or no-Antimony Lead won't get to me until mid to late August (My buddy a few hundred miles away, who is giving it to me, will be bringing it in his SUV, versus shipping it, because the cost to ship the quantity he is giving me would be ridiculously high). At that point, I'll find out quickly if the claims are true or not.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

Basically, Lee says that if your load potentially develops a peak pressure high enough to hit the yield point of the alloy you used to cast the bullet, the metal "yields" and can no longer prevent blow-by and leading. So, Lee recommends you stay about 10% below the yield pressure, where you suppsoedly get good obturation without the risk of leading.

As for how a (good) powder coating behaves under pressure: The various attempted destructive processes tried by shooters who powder coat suggest that the powder coating is NOT hard or brittle. Rather it is a polymer that binds aggressively on a molecular level to both itself and the metal it has been applied onto, and it remains FLEXIBLE. Even on bullets that have been pounded down almost flat with a hammer, the powder coating on the resulting "blob" is STILL UNfractured.

You cannot treat a powder coated bullet the same as a metal jacketed bullet. The level of friction between the jacketed bullet and the polymer powder coated bullet are on two different planets. A jacketed bullet stuck in a barrel has to be pushed out via a hammer hitting repeatedly, hard, on a metal rod. A low-BHN cast lead bullet can apparently be pushed out with a WOODEN dowel.

And, you can apparently SIZE a powder coated bullet in a regular sizing setup (like the Lee sizer) without fracturing or scraping off the powder coating. This apparently makes it possible to coat a bullet that casts as , for example, .459" diameter, powder coat it (adding maybe .002" or more to the diameter), and then size it down to either .459" or .460", without disturbing the coating!

So, in essence, a good powder coat is more like a flexible but VERY durable "sleeve" within which the bullet shape can actually be altered without destroying the integrity of the coating, which continues to prevent blowby and the resulting leading of the barrel. And, it does not build up in your seating die (and on everything else it touches).

One obvious attraction is that if your load's BHN is borderline or worse in terms of resistance to leading, the powder coating appears to be far more robust than a typical bullet lubricant. That gives a reloader more flexibility and more room for error on the BHN.

Yes, this does all sound "too good to be true", but since shooters all over The World (it started in Australia) have been doing it for over a decade, I guess it is considered "proven", so I intend to try it myself.

Notice that the traditional makers and suppliers of bullet lubricants and the tools used to apply them don't talk about powder coating. That's NOT because they can cite any problems with it (unless someone uses an inappropriate or low quality powder). It's because they don't SELL powders or powder tools and equipment, so even mentioning powder would potentially divert prospectives buyers away from their offerings.

Anyway, within a few weeks, I'll be able to test the claims in person. The Linotype I will "dilute" with low-Antimony and/or no-Antimony Lead won't get to me until mid to late August (My buddy a few hundred miles away, who is giving it to me, will be bringing it in his SUV, versus shipping it, because the cost to ship the quantity he is giving me would be ridiculously high). At that point, I'll find out quickly if the claims are true or not.

Jim G

My point being yield is a scientific term not related in any way to gas cutting, and deformation caused by the lead yealding is what causes opteration. This is a desired trait. The powder coat prevents gas cutting, because it has a much higher vaporization temperature, and this prevents the base melting and leaving lead deposits. I agree that Lyman and Lee do not cover PC because they don't sell it, and it replaces profitable products in their lineup. As an additional observation I would never under any circumstances use a wood dowel in any barrel. Aluminum, brass, bronze, copper are all much better alternatives.

 

[Chief TC]

In fact, many shooters of "buffalo rifles", especially the Pedersoli models, suggest an alloy that is JUST hard enough to not lead the barrel, and up to .002" larger in diameter than the groove depth in the rifling of the barrel. The soft alloy helps the bullet to obturate easier for a snug accurate fit. Since I am going to the trouble of casting my own bullets, and want to try shooting the Pedersoli at up to 600 yards (the max range distance at my home range), THAT is what I am intending to go for!

Jim G

Correct, this is the preferred alloy of BPCR shooters if they can use the exact size bullet they want. 20-1 is softer and helps more with obturation. 12.5 BHN will work well. I shoot bullets that are around 12.5-13 and they work magnificently. Pedersolis are usually .459 and like .460-.461. Some people's Pedersolis will shoot .459 fine but mine does not with harder alloys. You will find it is no issue shooting 600 yds once you get everything dialed in.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Correct, this is the preferred alloy of BPCR shooters if they can use the exact size bullet they want. 20-1 is softer and helps more with obturation. 12.5 BHN will work well. I shoot bullets that are around 12.5-13 and they work magnificently. Pedersolis are usually .459 and like .460-.461. Some people's Pedersolis will shoot .459 fine but mine does not with harder alloys. You will find it is no issue shooting 600 yds once you get everything dialed in.

Ah, good to hear that I am on the right track! The RIGHT handmade 500g moderate velocity cartridges, coupled with the HiLux full barrel length 6X scope that mitigates my macular degeneration, SHOULD make decent 600 yard groups possible. I am still in awe of what buffalo hunters and U.S. Army troops were able to do with those Sharps and Trapdoor rifles back in the day.

Yes, my PGW 6.5 Creedmoor rifle shoots long distance great (1/4 moa at 300 yards), but shooting a 150 year old design replica rifle, using a scope that is at least somewhat similar to what they had available to them, and using ammunition at least reasonably similar in trajectory and power to what they had, is a whole different and satisfying experience!

Jim G

 

[Jim Watson]

If your barrel is "taper" or "choke" bored, that helps immensely in obturatuon as it gets progressively brighter towards the muzzle.

I have wondered how Pedersoli can simultaneously say they broach rifle but still have a tapered bore.
Kind of like Harry Pope saying he taper bored his schuetzen barrels but did not "emery" them like most makers lapped in their taper or choke. And how did Elmer Keith's gunsmith "draw bore" his shotgun barrel to taper the full length instead of having a distinct choke?
I recently saw an explanation of how the Colt "silver ball" could polish a tapered bore. Strange.

I am still in awe of what buffalo hunters and U.S. Army troops were able to do with those Sharps and Trapdoor rifles back in the day.

Maybe not as much as you think. Buffalo range was typically 300 yards. The hunters wanted to stay out of sight, sound, and smell but still make good hits. Long range targets were typically large, larger that what we now shoot at.

 

[AJC1]

5744 seems to have gone up significantly in price. At least 10 dollars more than even varget, no idea why....

 

[JimGnitecki]

5744 seems to have gone up significantly in price. At least 10 dollars more than even varget, no idea why....

Yes, but using 20.5g of 5744 with the sample 500g bullets that a friend gave me to try, the Std Dev was THREE, and the very first 3-shot group at 100 yards was 1.1". Given that kind of start in ladder testing, would YOU change powders?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I have wondered how Pedersoli can simultaneously say they broach rifle but still have a tapered bore.
Kind of like Harry Pope saying he taper bored his schuetzen barrels but did not "emery" them like most makers lapped in their taper or choke. And how did Elmer Keith's gunsmith "draw bore" his shotgun barrel to taper the full length instead of having a distinct choke?
I recently saw an explanation of how the Colt "silver ball" could polish a tapered bore. Strange.

. . .

Yeah, I don't get that either. Here's what I found online that SEEMS to contradict the "tapered barrel" thing:


Source: Dick Trenk
"
At Pedersoli all barrels are drilled and reamed but then we add a third step which is to HONE the bore hole to bring it up to the match grade tolerance of the final bore diameter. Also the honing produces a much finer finish in the bore hole and this fine finish becomes the tops of your lands.....mirror finish affect before we start the broaches on their job of cutting all the grooves.

Also, we use two of these 5-6 foot long broaches on each rifle barrel.

The first broach brings the rifling up to within .0020" of the final dimension. The second broach having 15 cutters brings the rifling up the last .0020" to the final dimension.

This second broach has the last three cutters of the exact same size. As cutter #13 makes the final tiny cut it is worn a bit. Eventually cutter #13 will no longer bring the groove up to the final diameter so cutter #14 which has been doing no work, comes into play and handles that final cut.

#14 eventually wears a bit and cutter #15 which has done no work up to this time, comes into play and takes over making the final cut.

Experience tells us when to remove the broaches and have them resharpened back to normal dimensions. Barrels are visually inspected using a borescope which projects the picture onto a large TV monitor. Air gaging is performed to verify the rifling is within match grade tolerances (plus/minus .0002").
"
I don't know how old that quote is, or wether it even applies now. I just keep hearing that the Pedersoli rifles are VERY accurate . . . I don't really know why.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

Yes, but using 20.5g of 5744 with the sample 500g bullets that a friend gave me to try, the Std Dev was THREE, and the very first 3-shot group at 100 yards was 1.1". Given that kind of start in ladder testing, would YOU change powders?

Jim G

If you only have one pound yes.... if you have multiple 8s because your all in no. I have 5 pounds of 4198 and that's a solid choice....

 

[PapaG]

I respectfully agree that the "tapered" bore is not probable with the production sequence described. Go softer with your lead, 1-20.
Good lube helps. SPG for me now. I did quite well with the old Javalina 50-50 beeswax/alox fifty years ago.

 

[Chief TC]

I have wondered how Pedersoli can simultaneously say they broach rifle but still have a tapered bore.
Kind of like Harry Pope saying he taper bored his schuetzen barrels but did not "emery" them like most makers lapped in their taper or choke. And how did Elmer Keith's gunsmith "draw bore" his shotgun barrel to taper the full length instead of having a distinct choke?
I recently saw an explanation of how the Colt "silver ball" could polish a tapered bore. Strange.

Maybe not as much as you think. Buffalo range was typically 300 yards. The hunters wanted to stay out of sight, sound, and smell but still make good hits. Long range targets were typically large, larger that what we now shoot at.

I would say in terms of decent grouping, 300 is about the limit of a Trapdoor. Sharps, obviously much more with scopes and vernier sights. At 300, I can keep my Trapdoor grouped in a 16" target. That is good enough in my book and from benchrest. Off hand, 200 or so is doable. I think it is important to remember than people back then didn't put a lot of thought into animal suffering to obtain their resources. 300 was about the limit to penetrate to fell the animal and wait for it to die or move closer later to finish the job. Catch and release and humane kills came along much later. I read somewhere that if whales and buffalo could have screamed in terror and agony over their killing by our long-suffering hunting equipment, then things might have been a little different.

 

[Jim Watson]

I read that the buffalo technique was to identify the herd leader, typically a cow, and shoot her through the lungs so she would quietly bleed out. Then you could shoot as many of the rest as your skinners could handle.
Known as “getting a stand.”

 

[JimGnitecki]

I just picked up the Pedersoli from the gunsmith. The slugging apparently showed the bore grooves to be .4563" diameter. So, a .458" or .459" sized diameter bullet should be optimal. a .460" sized bullet would be .0037" larger than the groove diameter. That would be TOO snug a fit, even with a soft lead bullet, right?

Jim G

 

[Chief TC]

I just picked up the Pedersoli from the gunsmith. The slugging apparently showed the bore grooves to be .4563" diameter. So, a .458" or .459" sized diameter bullet should be optimal. a .460" sized bullet would be .0037" larger than the groove diameter. That would be TOO snug a fit, even with a soft lead bullet, right?

Jim G

Surprising it is that small for groove diameter. Are you sure that is not bore diameter? Groove diameter is more and this is what you are trying to fill. With soft lead you typically only need .001 to .002 over groove diameter or the same diameter with harder alloys.

 

[P Flados]

The "Per the Lee Hardness Tester crib sheet supplied with the Lee tool, BHN 11 can handle only 15,700 psi" is part of a "myth" that has been "busted" many times. It sounds good, but it more of an "old wives tale" rationalization that came from folks that probably did not understand the need for and how to get the proper fit.
I cast most everything I load with range pickup lead that is not too far from the 10 - 12 BHN range. A number of my better loads (some right at 2 MOA out to 200 yards) are up there in pressure. I do use shake & bake PC on these. A couple are probably in excess of 50,000 psi (357 Max AR) and a good number more are in the 35,000 to 45,000 psi range.

For a PC bullet, I do not think we have really figured out a sure fire way to pick the "best" diameter. For my 35 cal guns, most of my various full power loads have probably been from right at bore diameter up to say 0.0025" over. I have had leading in a PC application (9 mm handgun of all things) that I eventually cured by going bigger than I originally anticipated needing. I feel that starting anywhere in the range 0.0015" to 0.0025" over is not bad. Going a little smaller after you find something that seems to be working is one of those final "lets ty this" things that could make a small improvement.

 

[Jim Watson]

I just picked up the Pedersoli from the gunsmith. The slugging apparently showed the bore grooves to be .4563" diameter. So, a .458" or .459" sized diameter bullet should be optimal. a .460" sized bullet would be .0037" larger than the groove diameter. That would be TOO snug a fit, even with a soft lead bullet, right?

Jim G

I had best accuracy from a .411” bullet in a .408” barrel.
Apparently what I need is to fill the throat, not just the grooves.

I think you are plowing new ground with coated bullets and smokeless, it is going to take shooting.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Surprising it is that small for groove diameter. Are you sure that is not bore diameter? Groove diameter is more and this is what you are trying to fill. With soft lead you typically only need .001 to .002 over groove diameter or the same diameter with harder alloys.

I just re-checked with the gunsmith. That is the groove diameter, not the land diameter,

Jim G