Cast vs Forged

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I am old enough to have read Elmer Keith's old columns in Guns & Ammo many years ago when I was much younger. One of these by lines was about a fellow that took a ruger (Cast parts) and a S&W 29 with both being chambered in Rem. .44 Mag. He loaded the .44 cases full with IIRC bullseye powder. The ruger lost the top of three chambers from the cylinder and the top of the revolver's frame and the S&W was badly bulged. Keith attributed the difference to forging versus casting. I am not sure, but I am not impressed overall with Ruger products relative to QC compared to better products. Please note I do own a 10/22 and I have had intimate contact with ruger revolvers, .22 pistols, and M77 and I am not highly impressed. They all do go bang and so I consider rugers the AKs of civilian sporting arms. The point I am trying to make is that cast while good enough is likely not the very best. I am not a metallurgist or a material scientist and certainly may be wrong.
 
Some of Ruger's handguns are rightly considered some of the strongest. They are both quality cast, and also tend to use more overall material. This makes them heavy, but the extra material as well as being quality castings more than compensates for them being cast. Making some of them able to withstand more than many forged designs.




That said if quality is otherwise equal, alloys and heat treatment good, etc Then forged is better than cast.
You can have bad forged and good cast.

Cast material is almost never pure material when melted, other material is added to help the metal flow, fill the mold, etc This creates a product that is often slightly more porous. The crystalline structure is also more uniform, but that also makes it weaker than a crystalline structure with aligned patterns supporting each other as in forged metal.

Forging starts with the desired material and smashes the crystals together, resulting in the metal being slightly denser and with a crystalline structure that resists deformation better. However there is a limit, excessive forging can lead to brittleness. Certain steps in the heat treatment can all help the final product, relieving certain stresses while retaining and increasing the strength.



Both processes have additional considerations and can be done poorly or well. A good casting is less expensive to do than a good forging. So it is easier to find good quality high strength castings by companies that have invested in a lot of equipment and have good experience than to find companies that do good forgings.

Forging costs more. It takes more energy and effort to smash a piece of metal into the desired shape than to melt it into shape with a mold. This means you pay more for forged even when they are of lesser quality than some available cast products.
But comparing two of the best products, with everything done in the ways to lead to the highest quality, a forged product would be superior.

In today's market few do high quality forgings of firearm components because it is just not economical. In a time when people will shop elsewhere if you charge more than their competitor for a product that does the same thing and is of similar quality, it makes more sense to sell to a larger market by casting parts and having a more competitive price tag.
Since neither process effects the final fit and finish which are the most noticed traits, the consumer rarely will base their opinion of quality on such things as the alloy used, whether it was forged or cast, or the steps in the process used, anyways. So a manufacturer will take the less expensive method that still gives adequate strength, and focus more on fit and finish the extent of which itself costs money.
They still need to make profit while selling at a competitive price to those shopping for a similar class of firearms. The absolute perfectionist that focuses on traits the market does not even notice would typically find themselves unable to price competitively and not be in business long.
 
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I am old enough to have read Elmer Keith's old columns in Guns & Ammo many years ago when I was much younger. One of these by lines was about a fellow that took a ruger (Cast parts) and a S&W 29 with both being chambered in Rem. .44 Mag. He loaded the .44 cases full with IIRC bullseye powder. The ruger lost the top of three chambers from the cylinder and the top of the revolver's frame and the S&W was badly bulged. Keith attributed the difference to forging versus casting. I am not sure, but I am not impressed overall with Ruger products relative to QC compared to better products. .

Hmmmm...then why do numerous companies who publish reloading data have extra hot loads that they warn are only to be shot in Ruger Blackhawks or T/C Contender/Encores?
 
The only "Ruger Only" load data I have in three manuals is for .45 Colt and the difference is between a gun with a good thick well alloyed steel frame and a good thick well alloyed barstock cylinder versus guns with forged but slender frames and thin walled cylinders, some going back to mild steel and even wrought iron.

As Jeff Cooper said, probably of the same "test" that Elmer Keith described, the Ruger let go before the S&W but since both were subjected to about triple the normal operating pressure, he did not consider the difference significant. He was then answering a question about fluted vs non-fluted cylinders, not cast vs forged. I do not think Ruger casts cylinders, anyhow. Just as easy to saw off a piece of bar stock as to machine down a casting and cheaper than making up molds.
 
In the 1970s Detroit automakers went from forged crankshafts to cast to save money. Cast is cheaper. The racers stuck with forged cranks for their high performance engines. Gee... I wonder why? Maybe it's because... that's right... forged is better.
Pure BS. Detroit has never routinely used forgings except in very limited high performance applications, and sometimes not even then. For the run of the mill cars, forgings are just too expensive and don't offer the consumer any return for the additional cost. For normal cars, cranks, rods, flywheels etc have always been cast.
 
All else being equal, and if forging is DONE RIGHT, it is stronger than casting. I don't understand why people are arguing this. Sure, if you compare a crappy forge job to a stellar cast job the results will be different, but then "all else is not equal."

But depending on how you interpret the OP, the end result is it *probably does not make a difference since the gun manufacturer has taken into account the strengths of its parts in regards to the whole gun

*Here is my exception though. There are 1911's with cast frames and forged frames. Huge cost difference, but they exist. I have a Dan Wesson Pointman 7 with a cast frame. I'd love to get the Valor with the forged frame. Yes, it is stronger. Yes it cost more. Will it matter after 10-20,000 rounds? Maybe not. Will it matter after 50,000 rounds? Possibly...or even probably. No one is going to convince me that there is ZERO difference in the lifespan. I don't think so.
 
Just as an historical note, the rather famous firm of Krupp preened itself on the quality of its castings. Look at the advertisements in an old Jane's Fighting Ships. Being able to do by casting, work that less sophisticated firms could only accomplish by forging was their calling card.
 
It's the engineering, either process can produce a fine product, what did the engineers design to is the question.

Also between casting and forging, casting has benefited far more in the last 50 years from advances than forging has. No doubt Elmer Keith was right in the day - BUT - casting today, especially done by an outfit like Ruger with enough technical excellence to work for aerospace applications as well as firearm production - is a different world from even Ruger's production 20 years ago.
 
Jim W response does raise another question"
The only "Ruger Only" load data I have in three manuals is for .45 Colt and the difference is between a gun with a good thick well alloyed steel frame and a good thick well alloyed barstock cylinder versus guns with forged but slender frames and thin walled cylinders, some going back to mild steel and even wrought iron.

As Jeff Cooper said, probably of the same "test" that Elmer Keith described, the Ruger let go before the S&W but since both were subjected to about triple the normal operating pressure, he did not consider the difference significant. He was then answering a question about fluted vs non-fluted cylinders, not cast vs forged. I do not think Ruger casts cylinders, anyhow. Just as easy to saw off a piece of bar stock as to machine down a casting and cheaper than making up molds..
How does the quality of such steels compared to high quality cast parts.
Wikipedia states that with some rewording to counter copywrite liability:
Barstock made in a steel mill or aluminium plant is formed (by rolling or extrusion) into diverse shaped continuous strips. It sounds like barstock is already forged.
 
You hit it right on the head valnar. My original question was asked because I wanted to know if a cast 1911 frame was strong enough to do the job. I bought a Remington 1911 last year and I didn't know that it had a cast frame until after I bought it. (I assumed all 1911 frames were forged, You know what they say about assuming things)

I have an older Springfield (that I think has a forged frame, but I don't really know)
They probably both will not get shot enough to wear either of their frames out.

Mike
 
Barstock made in a steel mill or aluminium plant is formed (by rolling or extrusion) into diverse shaped continuous strips. It sounds like barstock is already forged.

Yes, bar stock is a wrought product.
 
I have an old Pontiac in the garage that runs mid 10s on a cast crank. There were no economical forged cranks when I put the motor together so I crossed my fingers and I got around 300 passes out of the car but the crank eventually wiggled a bit and it wiped out the 3/4 bearings with no other damage.

If the crank was forged it would still be running.
 
If you have ever shot a real M14 and then shot a Spring. Inc. cast reproduction the first thing you will notice is the real M14 rings as the bolt cycles and the Spring Inc M1A clunks.

Does this make the M14 better?
I don't know, I have fired a helluva lot of rounds out of both and have not had either receiver fail but the M14 still has that ring,,,,;)

What I DON'T care for are MiM parts in firearms.
They don't lend well to modification and if a stress is placed on the part in a manner not designed for the part, it will fail.
 
I bet you used forged pistons in that fine Pontiac machine......especially if nitrous was added.
 
Machining from a billet (the billet could be cast, forged, extruded, etc.).

Cast isn't as strong. You very very rarely see components that are made out of castings where absolute strength is required. Its almost always used where casting is strong enough, but provides cost savings. In motor racing, forged pistons, connecting rods, crank shafts, gears, or any other torque bearing component are universally desired over cast. Same goes for engine blocks. Now that 5-axis CNC machines are common, milled forged engine blocks are showing up in the aftermarket.

As soon as humans invented forging, cast tools became a rarity. Only the very earliest swords and axe heads were cast in bronze.

Someone on page one said castings are extremely difficult to weld. He's absolutely right. If you try to weld a cast part to a forged or extruded part, the welds tend to break because the forged and extruded parts have all of their molecules "lined up" whereas cast isn't like that.

If cast is strong enough for the application, then its fine, and forging may not be needed at all. So for AR receivers, Ruger Slides and wheel gun cylinders, fine. But for barrels, not fine.

One other problem with casting is because of gravity and variance in cooling you get variable densities throughout the metal. Forging eliminates much of this.

Is it better? Almost universally yes. Is it needed? Not in a lot of applications.
 
I do not think Ruger casts cylinders, anyhow.
That is correct. Ruger's revolver cylinders are not made from cast steel, they are machined "from wrought barstock".

The attachment is an excerpt from an email conversation between Catherine Wall of Ruger and 1858, a member here at THR who originally posted it. I'd link to his original post, but the attachment is no longer showing there for some reason.
 

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In the crankshaft analogy, isn't the forged crank running happily in a cast iron (or aluminum) engine block?

Strong enough is strong enough. It's not like we need magazine followers milled out of a solid piece of forged steel when bent sheet metal or molded plastic will do. Same goes for frames. If it's strong enough for the application it doesn't matter if it was cast or forged. Much ado about nothing in many cases...
 
Proper design and quality controls in the mfg. process can produce parts from either process that have sufficient strength for the application and prove durable over extended use.

As mentioned, the difference between parts produced via casting and forging is metalurgical at the grain level. Forged parts are "work hardened" and have "strain energy" locked into their crystal grain structure. This is what it is.... and whether it's "better" or "worser" depends on how the part is used in the assembly. Hardness is not the only material property that matters. Some parts which receive ware from contact with other parts benefit from increased hardness. Other parts, benefit from increased toughness and may suffer a brittle fracture if made too hard.

Also, work hardening is not the only way to get a hard part. Very closely controlled heat treatment, with quenching at the end can also produce hardened parts.

Often times, older models which were designed around specific processes are "value engineered" to use more modern processes. But if the parts were not designed from the ground up to be manufactured with that specific processes attributes in mind, then it's possible to compromise the part.

So blanket statements about X process is better than Y, may not apply to modern designs that were detailed specifically for the Y process.

Keep in mind that there is a significant difference between anecdotal evidence reported from a casual shooter who pushes a couple hundred rounds a year through his piece, and a competitive shooter who puts a thousand or more down range each weekend.

I, myself, tend to peruse the gunsmith oriented forums that focus on specific models, when I want to assess what's "best" (for that model).
 
Bar stock made in a steel mill or aluminum plant is formed (by rolling or extrusion) into diverse shaped continuous strips. It sounds like bar stock is already forged.

There are many different degrees of "working" ....

Even within the bar stock world, there is hot rolled and cold rolled. Generally speaking, you do more "strain hardening" to the metal when you work it at lower temps and when you reduce it's thickness by a greater % during the rolling process.

Not all metals can be work hardened in the same way. Generaly, you have to alloy them to get the best results. For example, high carbon steel can be hand wrought .... pounded over and over with a hammer... to get ridiculously hard .... 65 on the Rockwell 'C' scale ... used in Japanese woodworking chisels.

Now take a square peg and pound the snot out of it, over and over again, with several hundred tons of pressure, until its shaped like a pretzil... and you've done some serious work hardening.

Often times, forged parts can wind up too hard for their application, in which case they are heated up to just below melting temp. where the grain structure is allowed to wiggle a little, and the internal stresses are relieved. Then they are slowly cooled. This is called annealing.

I'm no metalurgist.... just a run of the mill mech. eng. But I always found metallurgy fascinating and really enjoyed the strength of materials lab. back in the stone ages.
 
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QC is more important than cast or forged.

Considering my Stage 15 KB fuel CAST blocks pump out a little over 5000hp and have windowed only when a FORGED rod or crank broke, I'd say casting works real well.
 
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