Caught in an Armed Robbery

[Trisha]

While drawing, identify best aim point and sequence for second goblin. Fire. Follow-through when firing and determine designated targets hit. Move to any available hard cover and determine known threat neutralized. Be absolutely aware of possible additional goblins outside. Tac reload. Focus on breathing, and visual ques to motion as hearing will be significantly impaired. Ongoing visual sweeps.

YMMV

 

[merpho]

unique perspective

I may have a somewhat different perspective on this issue.

I live in Michigan and I just recently got my CCW. Our sheriff suggested I get it because I am a real estate developer on the poor side of town.

I also teach Anger Management to the prisoners at the County Jail. I am also helping set up a halfway house for these men upon their release.

When I look out at my class I think how lucky they were to not be shot by the police, their victims or armed bystanders. Because it is only luck that they are alive to come to class, to be released, and to change their lives.

If I have the opportunity to save another's life or my own there is no question that I would use my weapon. I have been a volunteer firefighter and paramedic so public service and saving lives is important to me.

At my CCW class they suggested already having an attorney lined up in case you need one.

I have dealt with enough felons to realize that they have little concern about the life or safety of their victims or bystanders. With proper therapy and re-education they an be taught to care and enter regular society. But expecting them to care in the midst of their crime is to set ourselves up for injury or death.

When I look at these scenarios it is hard for me to not be proactive.

 

[pcosmar]

murpho
I applaud you, and caution you also. Those that want to change need all the help they can get. Those that do are rare, I know because I am one.
I was once that guy with a gun, takeing money. I have been told that as a "felon" I have no rights. Well, be that as it may, I will put myself in the way of anyone causing harm to another.
I can not get a CCW, that might be a good thing. I would hate to have it get in the way of helping someone.
Don't get discouraged, you won't be able to help some, but you may find someone like me.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Vic said: Why even have a CCW? Carrying around an extra 2# +/- for NO reason? Exactly why I opted NOT to CCW . . . In otherwords...CCW=useless.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Is your view than a handgun carried about but never used is useless?

A permit does not confer upon us a duty to act. That doesn't mean its useless.

Most of us reach the conclusion we will protect ourselves and our loved ones with lethal force. A few decide they will extend that protection to strangers, under whatever circumstances they deem appropriate. The permit we are issued doesn't require it, not does it even encourage it. But, as I read through your responses Vic, I see both admonishments to walk away, and advocations to intervene. You have me confused.


However, I adamantly disagree with your take that a permit is useless. The ability to legally move about society armed is of benefit. You might not see it, but many do. Even if I never use it, my homeowner's and car insurance has value. I don't view it any differently.

 

[pcosmar]

As one who has no ability to carry, I was looking at this from a "you are here," point of view.
The right to carry a weapon is not a responsibility to act, but provides an ability to act.
The choice is yours, as well as the possible consequences.
Having had personal experience with the legal system, I can understand the reluctence of some to act. The "Law" is not always just, and justice is not often legal.
Whether you act from a sense of civic duty or a moral duty,it could have unintended consequences. You have to do what you know is right.
It is unfortunate that so many law abiding citizens have so much fear of the "Law".
Do what is right. Nothing more can be asked.

 

[Vic]

PingPong...

I'll clear it up (not waffleing). I believe EVERY able bodied person whom is of legal age and has not been convicted of a felony/has mental issues, and has had some formal training should have the right to carry on their person a firearm of their choice...period, and have the blessings of the justice system should they have to employ that firearm and were found to be within their right to employ said firearm. If I seem a little scatty about CCW, it's for a good reason...you're guilty of a crime if you employ a weapon/firearm in self defense in a public place, and that is how a PA will see it. With the laws already in place, all they have to do is prove you fired a shot and it was illegal to do so...you're guilty of a felony and forget ever touching another firearm. If my neighbor whom is nearly 80 called me in the middle of the night, I'd respond with the approprate tools to confront a threat knowing well police will also be on the way but I live in the country, I could get away with it. In a big city...not a chance. Thats all I'm saying.

 

[Manedwolf]

Here's my state's law, for ref. I think (b) covers this situation entirely. Note it says unlawful force, not deadly force, hence you'd be able to shoot someone who was threatening the clerk with a baseball bat, if you followed the letter of the law. Civil suits are another matter.

II. A person is justified in using deadly force upon another person when he reasonably believes that such other person:

(a) Is about to use unlawful, deadly force against the actor or a third person;

(b) Is likely to use any unlawful force against a person present while committing or attempting to commit a burglary;

(c) Is committing or about to commit kidnapping or a forcible sex offense; or

(d) Is likely to use any unlawful force in the commission of a felony against the actor within such actor's dwelling or its curtilage.

 

[Helstrm]

I would much rather carry a gun and never have to use it, than find myself needing a gun and not having one.

I truly hope I never have to live with the fact that I took a life but it would be much harder to watch my kids get killed when I could have stopped it.

 

[Riz58]

Armed Robbery

Here in the town where I live, an incident similar to the hypothetical occured. The owner of the local bus company franchise and his employee were inside the terminal. An armed robber walks in and demands the cash in the safe.

He tells the owner to stay where he is and walks with employee over to the back office with a gun to her head or back. BG stands in the door as he orders employee to get the money.

BG is unaware that owner has just returned from pistol shooting practice. As BG is looking at employee, owner pulls his pistol from under the counter and shoots the BG in the head, killing him. Ruled justifiable homicide - no action taken. (This was before NM had concealed carry.)

Use of lethal force in the defense of another threatened with lethal force is valid in most states.

 

[Sharps-shooter]

my first priority in this type of situation would be to SMOA. Not that I don't care about the store clerk, but I care more about whether my kids grow up without a dad. If I could ID the suspect, I would. If I could exit the premises, I would. Usually, robbers around here just come to rip people off, not to kill them, and most frequently they seem to get caught afterwards. Your results may vary.

 

[30 cal slob]

one thing to discuss a hypothetical on the internet ... another altogether to face it when it happens.

i'd say i'd get involved as quickly as i can without needlessly endangering innocent parties.

how this plays out specifically ... is going to be situational and i don't mean to be cheeky but one has to very quickly weigh things in one's mind.

do i stay put and be a good witness or is somebody really gonna get hurt/killed?

it's so easy to freeze like a deer in headlights when this stuff happens. the first thing you're thinking is "holy sh*t I can't believe this is happening," your chest starts pounding and time slooooooooows down ("tachypsychia" - what a weird feeling).

having been through this kind of experience twice in my life, i only know that under such circumstances one tends to fall back on training (I believe the average CCW'er probably can't get enough of it), and the only certain thing is that afterwards i will need to change my shorts.

 

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

D) No idiotic warnings or shouted commands. Firm grip, steady squeeze. Two to center mass, one to the head. Then dial 9-11.

 

[Mike_in_OC]

Sharps-shooter... I am with you.

 

[kengrubb]

As a private citizen with a license to carry, I am under far less of an obligation than an off-duty LEO. I could, legally, sit by and watch as an armed robber summarily executed store employees and customers and only intervene when it appeared that my life was close to being directly threatened. As for any moral obligation, that's between me, the Almighty, and the guy in the mirror.

Realistically, robbers rob stores because they want the money. Taking money that doesn't belong to you is one thing. Executing innocents is something else altogether. There is a clear disparity under the law in terms of sentencing, most of the time. There are lots more robberies than there are murders.

If it's just a robbery, and it looks like it's going to remain just a robbery, I'm going to be a good witness watching from behind cover or concealment. If they start frisking customers, lining people up along the wall or ground, or any other behavior indicative of a plan to kill people or eliminate witnesses, then I'm not going to remain just a witness.

As for what I would do, well, that's going to depend. There are 1,001 possible variables, and even if one accounted for every such variable here, one would probably discover another 1,001 other variables. Some things that might alter my behavior would be questions like am I alone or is the wife with me, are the kids with me, are the kids and the wife with me, is it the kids only, is it just one of the kids.

What I can and cannot do is dictated by who I need to protect. I want to protect every innocent in harms way, but first and foremost there are innocents I need to protect.

Wet your britches, stamp your feet, or flame away if you must, but if given the choice between saving one of my kids and saving the cashier, my kid is going home alive with me and I'll mourn the death of the cashier. Things aren't always that clear cut. It's not Howie Mandel showing and asking, Deal or No Deal? The cashier or your kid?

Some have said no verbal challenges, never this, always that, etc.

I tend to believe that one should always remember to never use the words always or never. You might have to shoot an armed robber in the back to save an innocent. You might decide to yell a verbal challenge to the second armed robber who's reaching for a handgun in his waistband as he drops the loot he was carrying.

 

[tepin]

c

 

[peace]

This is a post I would try to emulate in life...

Too many variables in the question for a complete answer.

Are there other (presumably innocent) people in the store? Does the bad guy have his back to me? Is he focused on the clerk at the register, or is he scanning for threats? Is there a getaway car w/driver idling outside? Am I at the back of the store or near an exit?

The point being that there are a lot of different things I can see doing in this situation. I don't give a rat's ass about the store's money, I see my responsibility as protecting the lives of as many people as possible - up to and including the bad guy, if he can be saved. I can concieve of circumstances where I'd drop the bad guy without warning. I can also imagine a situation where I might order him to drop the gun. I can even see a time and place for standing by and doing nothing.

There's a reason why knocking over a convenience store isn't an offense they give you the death penalty for, and it makes sense to me. I've got employees at work - good, honest men - who screwed up in their youth, did some stupid things, did their time and turned their lives around. I think bad guy there in the store with the gun should have that chance, if I can give it to him without endangering anyone.

Besides... I know this is going to sound odd, but I'm a military veteran. As far as I'm concerned, I've killed enough people to last me through this lifetime. I'd rather not do that anymore. If I percieve the guy as a legitimate threat to the innocent, then he'll go down. If not, I'd do everything in my power (even if it meant putting myself in some danger) to find another way.

Reading through this thread I am grateful to have found this post. To me the sanctity of life is supreme. I believe that outlined above is a lot of wisdom to live by.

Right on Brother!

 

[ddave]

Armed robbery response

Too many unknowns in your scenario to say for sure. But going on your basic premise of a just a stickup for the money in the register.

1. Get my CCW out and hidden from view and be a really good witness.


2. If it started to go bad be a really (hopefully ) good shot.

 

[Rattlesnake]

I have an obligation as a LEO to enforce felony laws offduty. I'd draw out, ID myslef as a LEO and give verbal orders. Failure to comply, will result in me using all force I may deem necessary to halt the threat.

As I was watching Boondock Saints the other night I heard a good saying, "Now there is a greater evil we must fear and that is the indifference of good men." just my dos pesos.

 

[David904]

My first priority is my family. Period.

That said, I don't think I could stand idly by and watch some poor guy/girl behind the register get shot by someone over the contents of the cash till. Here comes the required disclaimer: I'm not Rambo/a cop/a vigilante/etc. However, I'm a decent caring human being who believes that we all have an obligation to protect each other from the wolves when they come to prey on the weak and unsuspecting. It sounds corny. I know. But the fact of the matter is this: criminals these days are much more inclined to extreme levels of violence. Witnesses are an inconvenience that many opt to pull the trigger and do without. And I'm of a mind that if someone presents a weapon as part of the "your money or your life" negotiation; I believe they intend to harm or kill someone.

I couldn't sit idly by while that happened.

I hope I would be smart about the way that I went about things. I'd like to take cover and shoot the criminal in the back. Back shots are good. Broader target and less chance they are going to be able to turn and shoot me. And as for giving a verbal warning like "Drop it..." Forget it. No warnings. No point in giving them a chance to hurt anyone - namely me.

Every night I strap on my gun before going to work. And each night I pray that I will not have to use it. But I also pray that should I find myself in just such a situation, to have the speed, the skill, and the good judgment necessary to resolve it the right way.

Thank God for cops. But when they are not there, we have to buy time for them to arrive. Relying on just calling 911 in some situations will only serve to make a tinny recording of the sounds of people getting shot by a criminal.

 

[BAT1]

Rattlesnake

Has a legal solution, if I was on the other side of the room, I'd fake a heart attack, to draw attention so he could do his thing, others could start rolling around on the floor saying they couldn't breath [ must be the knockout gas] , some sets off a fire alarm, there are alot of thing people could do, you can't just freeze up. Call 9-11 on your phone and put it in picture taking mode. Text messaging, the possibilities are endless. Remember, all you have to do is nothing if you are not armed, and anything if you are.

 

[starboard]

My amateur opinion follows.

I think the best time tactically-wise to take out the BG would be immediately at the start of the robbery, when the situation is dynamic and flush with sensory input for the BG as people are reacting with shock.

As the BG does a visual sweep and confirms that the audience is cowed and trembling, and turns to the clerk, before the gasps have quieted down, then would be a good time to draw and put him down, if the line is clear.

The BG is expecting a sheep response, and that's the response he always gets. He is expecting people to react with disbelief, and to not understand what the heck is going on. He is expecting people to at least weigh their options and see how things will play out. If you wait to see how things play out, this opportunity may be lost as things settle down and the BG becomes alert to the movements and noises of the otherwise hushed and still audience (that was made to bunch up in an easily controlled clump).

By the same token, if you have a second's warning - say masked intruders are about to walk through the glass doors of a restaurant you're in and you see them coming - neutralize them immediately while they are vulnerable to surprise, before they get their bearings.

As for concerns of lawsuits and such, you can as a matter of general principle keep your affairs in a configuration that's difficult to get at -- the "veils" of holding companies, trusts, etc can help keep your assets protected.

I don't usually carry, being a law-abiding Kalifornigranolasucker, so I would not charge a gun across open space with my knife to save a clerk. If my family was there, or I was second in line after the BG, I would do my best to introduce him to my blade. Two BGs, though, and I'd be proper ****ed.

Gotta have life insurance and other arrangements in place, and your affairs in order. Live every day with honor and joy, as though it is your last.

(And don't be a pathetic choice "C" Genovese syndrome sheeple).

 

[Doggieman]

choice D

I would only pull out my weapon to defend myself or somebody I really liked. Sorry Clerk, if I'm sure that only you are going to get popped, I probably won't pull out my revolver and start shooting. Of course all this is conjecture until you're actually in that situation. If I have a clean shot and know that there are no other baddies around, then maybe. If there's a baddy with a gun pointed at me too, then probably no.

Need more facts, but general rule is I protect ME, and let others worry about themselves. I'm not going to risk my life for someone I don't know. Sorry, never said I was a hero.

 

[Shadowangel]

So you'd be okay then, Doggie, if I stood by and watched your loved one get "popped" and did nothing, even though I was armed and had the element of surprise? If I could save your wife's life with little to no danger to myself, and I opted to stand by idly while she got killed, you would understand completely. Riiiight.

As a CCW holder, I would do anything possible to prevent the death of an innocent person. I consider it my responsibility. If I had reasonable belief that the thug was going to start shooting ANYONE, i'd open fire at the most opportune time.

 

[Jeff White]

That's it. This thread is done. The decision to intervene or not intervene is one that can only be made by the person who is on the scene at the time. That person must base his decision on his read of what's happening, his personal skill level and his own personal moral code.

These threads always degenerate into "I'm a better man then you are because I want to be a hero and you don't." chest beating contests. If someone has a specific issue about a specific situation that they want to discuss, they may start a new thread and we will discuss that one specific situation.

There will be no more general threads about if you would shoot the badguy or not. There is plenty of information available in the other threads that exist. Use the search function.

This is the Strategies and Tactics forum. A member's personal moral code is not on topic here.

Jeff