kind of a dumb question: basic armed robbery scenario

[30 cal slob]

person stands in front of cashier/bank teller etc.

person reaches for something in his waistband or pocket.

you see the object halfway out of the waistband/pocket.

the object is a gun or knife.

let's assume your situational awareness is 110% and your draw speed is also up to snuff.

WHEN is it lawful for you to draw your own weapon?

1) right away (as you see other person's gun drawn halfway)?

2) as soon as the other person's weapons is fully presented?

3) as soon as he points it at somebody?

sorry, i'm a little antsy today, another armed robbery reported in my neck of the woods.

 

[dstorm1911]

depends entirely on where it occurs

 

[crankshop1000]

When the BG threatens YOU. You are not a cop.Nothing good will come from you pulling a weapon in a robbery scenario. The sight of your weapon in a tense situation could very well be the trigger for him to start shooting. Any jury would likely find you liable for damages from any injuries because you were not personally threatened.Besides, the BG may not be alone.I'd hate to be trying to cover two or three BG's on a well thought out job with a 5 shot snubbie.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Depends on the situation:

1) If he makes it known its a robbery before reaching, I'd be legally justified in dropping him when his hand moves to his waist-- a "reasonable man" would believe he's going for a weapon to present a deadly threat to someone, which is my state's standard.

2) If he's drawing the weapon and announcing the robbery to the cashier at the same time, I'd go for the shot as soon as I could connect the dots to make "armed robbery" inside my own head.

In neither situation am I required to warn or attempt less than lethal measures... so my first shots would be fired "with permanent intent" shall we say and without warning-- then I would have to immediately do a 360 scan and get behind cover (Just because I see one doesn't mean there's only one).

 

[ceetee]

It depends on what the laws are in YOUR state. In Florida, you're justified in using deadly force as soon as you know that a forcible felony is being committed. Here, you don't have to wait until you, personally, are being threatened. You're allowed to assume that if a person near you is being threatened with deadly force, not only are you next, but you're within your rights to protect that person, even if he/she is a total stranger.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The "reality clause" applies to this one- let's keep it on track and on topic.
-----

That sort of thing is a nightmare scenario for anyone, armed citizen or plainclothes LEO. There are far more things you can do that are wrong, than things you can do that are right if you are confronted by such a situation.

Your awareness and your skills might well be exceptional, but you can still run into things that can cause serious problems. For example, do you really need to do anything at all, or is this person going to be gone with a bag of cash (and a dye pack) in less than a minute with no other harm done? What laws cover your conduct in this situation? Are you even supposed to be in a bank in your jurisdiction carrying a concealed weapon? Will there be legal consequences for you if you act, and if so what are those consequences likely to be? Is there any possibility this could be some sort of bizarre practical joke or the like between friends that you dont know anything about (is that 'knife' really a switchblade comb, for example?)

Are there other bank employees or customers behind the robber and in line with your muzzle if you decide to draw? If you draw, do you intend to fire immediately, or challenge first? If you are going to shoot the robber, where and how many times will you shoot him/her? Are you going to draw down on this robber, only to have his or her tailgunner that you hadn't noticed shoot you in the back of the head?

There are simply so many "what if's" in a scenario like this with no more details given than exist here, that it's nigh impossible to list them all. In my EMT I class years ago, it got to the point that when a student would say "But what if..." to the instructor, the rest of the class would groan, "What if, Volume 27."

You're asking reasonable questions. They are, however, questions very specific to your legal jurisdiction for the most part, and the answers will be ruled by local practice in enforcement of the existing laws there. You need (more desperately than I can tell you) to get answers to your questions from people in a position to know- LEOs in your area, your DA or prosecuting attorney, a criminal defense attorney or someone actively involved in the legal process where you live.

None of this stuff is to be taken lightly. None of us can afford to do that, ever.

Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

 

[CWL]

What if he has an accomplice hiding in line behind you? The 2nd man could easily pop a pill into the back of your head.

What if an off-duty cop was in the bank and saw your gun, he may decide that you are also a BG and decide to cancel your ticket.

Responding LEOs may also decide that you are a BG and decide to shoot first.

A robbery is very confusing, it will be hard to tell who the good guys are from the BGs. Unless the threat is directed at you, stay alert, but stay out of the way. Don't start the gunplay.

Even if the bank robbery goes down without any violence, you will still be spending a long time explaining to the police why you had a gun in there.

 

[elrod]

It most assuredly does rest in your state laws, and their particular twists. As a general rule, I would steer to the side of extreme caution. By saying that, I mean I would only present my gun if: 1) There was NO doubt that the BG intended to try to kill me, or 2) He meant grevious harm to others in the building. You are not paid or expected to prevent robbery. That money is insured. For all you know, a teller has already tripped a silent alarm, and the police are preparing to enter the bank, in which case you would probably be treated as one of the thieves. There is much at stake when you choose to intervene.

 

[Kentak]

People, use your damn heads.

Why, oh, why do you want to precipitate a gunfight? Why do you want to risk getting yourself or someone else hurt?

Instead of asking when is it legal to draw on the BG, ask if you *should* draw on the BG.

From the FBI:

An overview of the 2006 numbers:

Total violations: 7,272, up slightly from 6,957 in 2005.
Loot stolen: More than $70 million worth of cash, checks, and other property, with $11.2 million recovered by law enforcement to date.
The prime time for bank robberies: Between 9 and 11 on Tuesday mornings, which edged out Wednesday from 11 to 1 p.m. and Fridays from 3 to 6 p.m.
Most likely target: Branch offices of metropolitan commercial banks.
Their modus operandi: Firearms were involved 1,855 times; demand notes were used almost 4,000 times.
Acts of violence: Were committed in 329, or 4.5%, of the 7,272 violations. Of the 13 total deaths, 10 were the perpetrators.

In 2006, only 3 non-perps were killed in more than 7,000 bank robberies. BGs show weapons in only a fraction of bank robberies and use them even less.

Now, if you see the guy in front of the teller show a gun, the most likely thing to happen is that the teller will give the perp the money and he will leave, usually with most of the bank's occupants not even knowing what happened. If, on the other hand, you draw, well, as Woody Hayes used to say, "If you throw the football, four things can happen and three of them are bad" Similar concept with the draw down. Everything has to go right for it to turn out good for you and everyone else.

For me, the answer is, "I don't care when the legally earliest possible moment is for me to draw, I'll draw when I believe there is about to be a clear threat of deadly force used against me."

But, y'all can make your own decisions.

K

 

[jcoiii]

If you reasonably believe that the guy has the ability and the will to immediately use deadly force on you or another innocent party (in TN) you are justified in defending yourself or another with deadly force. If you think that the guy is just going to run with the bag of cash and is not an immenent threat, don't shoot him. If you believe he's going to shoot/stab (in the presented scenario) immediately (not "if you tell anyone I'll come back and shoot you"), you could defend if you so desired.

 

[tacmedicp94]

According to the penal code here in Texas, a person is justified in using deadly force to
"Prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery."

So in Tx you could use deadly force to stop the robbery. However I agree with the other comments about the second BG that you might have missed. You also have to take into the account that if you confront the BG he may just start spraying lead hitting who knows how many bystanders. Banks are insured for a reason, if I had to choose between letting a BG get away with a bag of the banks money or possibly getting a bystander injured or killed, I hope the dude doesn't spend it all in one place.

Best thing to do is get a good description and if possible type and make of get away car. Then let the LEO's handle it.

 

[Glockafella]

Not this again...

Ok your gun is to protect you! and only when someone is trying to kill YOU! You are not a police officer nor are you properly trained for responding to this incident. You don't know who is in the bank with this man and will kill you if u make a drastic move...or possibly worse...kill everyone! So keep your gun in your pants until you absolutely need it...It is not worth a few bucks or a lot of bucks to smoke this guy unless he is going to kill you or someone else.

Assess the situation...get to silent alarm or a phone and get help on the way if u can.

Next get a very good look at the suspect and also take note of eveyone else in the bank inside or outside(if you can).

Do whatever the suspect says as long as it is not dangerous or unreasonable. Your goal is to not aggitate or stress the suspect anymore then he already is.

Do whatever it takes to get this man away from YOU.

Im not saying its not okay to smoke the suspect if he goes ballistic... I.E. stabing or shoting people...because you should...but a bad situation can get much worse very fast.

NOT TO MENTION...If a security guard or a police officer(off duty or not) is around or sesponds and he sees you pull your piece or pointing it at people, he will smoke you without thinking twice.

 

[sacp81170a]

Use your chance to evade, call 911 on your cell phone, be a good witness, and be ready to use your firearm only if directly threatened. By extending your distance you give yourself time and opportunities to seek cover. If for some reason you have to use your firearm to prevent harm to another, you are in a position of advantage if you have cover, good observation, and space in which to act. Give yourself those options. If no shots are fired, good, innocent bystanders are safer and nobody has to go through the legal hassles and expense of getting involved in a shooting incident. Place yourself in a position of advantage first!

 

[AZ Heat]

Having personally been in 2 armed robberies while working in the bank, I would say things are much different in real life. People will often say they would do this or that, but when a man comes in yelling to get down and waving a gun around, you drop like a rag. Even the so-called tough guys just about mess their pants when a gun is in their face. In both robberies he got the money and left. Both times he pointed the gun at people's heads. When this happens, tunnel vision occurs and time changes speed. But because of my preparation and mindset, I was better off than some, who pretty much curled up in a corner and whimpered afterwards. I was able to lock up and start getting written statments from the customers while we waited for the police to arrive (standard procedure).

I have often thought about what would have happened if I was carrying (definately not happening while working at the bank). I think that I would have done the same thing, yet been ready to take action if they began shooting or taking a hostage. At that point it is a whole new game. Until then, I would just keep low and be ready.

As far as the legality, that all depends. Even if you shoot legally, it is going to be expensive. And if you shoot and he shoots back, hitting you or anyone else, that's bad news. You could be responsible for someone else's death. People don't always just drop when shot.

When talking to the FBI afterwards, they said it is always best to comply and give the money. It is insured. However, if they try to take a hostage, use whatever means necessary. In either case, it's much different when you are in the middle of the situation verses playing computer commando.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I think that with a bank - or any other venue - robbery, if only money is being taken, do nothing except try to be the best possible witness. If, however, they exhibit wanton violence (e.g., beating or shooting people with no provocation, sexual assault), try to herd everyone into a back room, tie you up (either of which may be a prelude to being killed), etc., I feel you have nothing to lose by "going to war."

 

[2RCO]

As a former Banker who spent quality time in an inner city branch. Please do not pull your gun in a Bank Robbery. Most Robbers are out the door with not much cash to speak of. We just want them out of the bank! I think one of the worst things that can happen in a robbery is an armed vigilante situation or the cops showing up before the robber gets out.

 

[Flak_Jakett]

1) The bank money he will be stealing will probably be marked dye packed or at the very least insured. So risking your life and the life of others in the bank seems not worth the risk.

2) Carrying a gun into a bank is a very big no no in my state. There are a few buildings that persons with a CHL cannot carry a weapon in and banks are one of those.

 

[QuickDraw]

True story ahead.......
I walked into my bank 10 or so years ago and see a guy I
know sitting at a desk reading something.I walk over and say
"Hi Bob".He asks me to sit down and talk to him.
I do.
Turns out hes a cop( I knew this) undercover and on a stake out at the bank!
Anyway,he explains whats happening and says stay and chat awhile
it will look better for his cover.Apparently the bank had been robbed
several times in the past few months.
Moral of the story:You don't know who is in the bank.