CCW:9mm vs. .357Mag, capcity vs. power
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Super Trucker
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I would go with the .357 and practice alot. either is ok, but you have to be able to hit what you aim at though.
armoredman
Member
Carry what you can hit well with - the biggest, baddest elephant killer bullet won't do you any good if you miss....I carry a 9mm, and don't feel bad at all.
Sounds like you are choosing between a S&W 686+ and a Glock 17. Both of those are fairly large to conceal and you may want to reconsider your choices. I would think that with practice you might be better off with a K-Frame Smith (Get them before they're gone I hear) or a three inch Ruger SP-101, though that is "only" a five shot. On the 9mm side, there are plenty of 10-13 shot pistols that will conceal much easier than a full on Glock 17.
Personally, I made the choice for power over capacity a long time ago. In my view, a CCW for a non-cop is a shoot and scoot type weapon, and there is no sense staying in a protracted gunfight when you have no duty to get into or stay in one. If you ask around a gun club or somewhere else where you can find a lot of CCW holders, you'd be surprised by how many rely on some flavor of snub revolver as their primary concealed weapon.
Since reloading in a defense shooting is going to be legally problematic unless extraordinary circumstances required it, I'd be completely at ease with a SP-101 or a steel J-Frame Smith and a speed strip. Many people here are already. Personally at the moment, I carry a Commander sized 1911A1, 7+1, but I often think of switching to the wheelgun, a calculation I am sure many have already made in favor of a smaller revolver.
Personally, I made the choice for power over capacity a long time ago. In my view, a CCW for a non-cop is a shoot and scoot type weapon, and there is no sense staying in a protracted gunfight when you have no duty to get into or stay in one. If you ask around a gun club or somewhere else where you can find a lot of CCW holders, you'd be surprised by how many rely on some flavor of snub revolver as their primary concealed weapon.
Since reloading in a defense shooting is going to be legally problematic unless extraordinary circumstances required it, I'd be completely at ease with a SP-101 or a steel J-Frame Smith and a speed strip. Many people here are already. Personally at the moment, I carry a Commander sized 1911A1, 7+1, but I often think of switching to the wheelgun, a calculation I am sure many have already made in favor of a smaller revolver.
With current 9mm ammo like the Ranger 147gr (among others) you give up nothing in effectiveness with the 9mm. If you're serious, search on the Terminal Effects Forum @ www.tacticalforums.com. Test data, not opinions. Enjoy. 
Sounds like you aren't dead set on 17 round capacity, since you're considering a 7-shot.
First of all, to counter what those without direct CCW experience with a full-frame G17 say, I can tell you first hand that it is NOT difficult to hide with a high-quality IWB holster. I use a Tucker ANSWER and I can hide it extremely easily with a cover shirt or a slightly loose sweater. It would be more difficult in summer/hot climates, however. I can hide a G26 with just a T-shirt, and even tuck it in without any printing.
I would suggest you look at the G19 over the G17 for all-around CCW. You give up only 2 rounds, for 15+1. It conceals almost as easily as a G26.
First of all, to counter what those without direct CCW experience with a full-frame G17 say, I can tell you first hand that it is NOT difficult to hide with a high-quality IWB holster. I use a Tucker ANSWER and I can hide it extremely easily with a cover shirt or a slightly loose sweater. It would be more difficult in summer/hot climates, however. I can hide a G26 with just a T-shirt, and even tuck it in without any printing.
I would suggest you look at the G19 over the G17 for all-around CCW. You give up only 2 rounds, for 15+1. It conceals almost as easily as a G26.
ojibweindian
Member
I have a 4" S&W 586 that is used as my primary CCW. There is no problem whatsoever in my ability to conceal it. A long, untucked polo shirt in the summer and a barn coat in the winter is all I need for walking about undetected.
Also, I have utter confidence in the .357 Magnum as a self defense round. The 9mm, while okay, doesn't give me the "warm fuzzies".
Also, I have utter confidence in the .357 Magnum as a self defense round. The 9mm, while okay, doesn't give me the "warm fuzzies".
Island Beretta
Member
[First of all, to counter what those without direct CCW experience with a full-frame G17 say, I can tell you first hand that it is NOT difficult to hide with a high-quality IWB holster.]
how do you know that, that is poster's experience with CCW and weapon???
how do you know that, that is poster's experience with CCW and weapon???Mulliga
Member
Full power .357 Mag loads will be nearly twice as powerful as 9mm loads. A revolver only carries half as much ammo, though.
I'd say it's a toss-up. My personal philosophy is, "Whatever's worth shooting once is worth shooting twice," but go with whatever you shoot best.
I'd say it's a toss-up. My personal philosophy is, "Whatever's worth shooting once is worth shooting twice," but go with whatever you shoot best.
fastbolt
Member
Concealment of a large frame pistol or revolver is mostly a matter of personal comfort and the manner of clothing you're willing to wear for concealment. There are just so many good quality holsters available nowadays, although pistols tend to receive more attention from the holster makers than revolvers.
I've carried large revolvers concealed off & on over the years. S&W 629 6 1/2", Ruger Redhawk 5 1/2" and S&W 686 4", Ruger Super Blackhawk 7 1/2", just to name some of the larger ones. The 686 was an issued weapon (replacing my earlier 66), so I carried it quite a bit, and mostly with one of the common, "inexpensive" IWB holsters of the day. Shoulder holsters were useful for the larger revolvers.
Of course, I've often also carried smaller revolvers with 2", 2 1/2", 2 3/4" & 3" barrels, but I did still carry larger framed revolvers as off duty weapons. Not very often nowadays ... and mostly for personal comfort reasons.
With the right holster and clothing, and some willingness to accept a bit of personal discomfort in some circumstances, larger revolvers can be carried lawfully concealed ... especially in colder weather when wearing thicker cover garments.
Smaller pistols & revolvers are often easier to carry, though, and more comfortable, as well.
Yeah, I know, I know ... many trainers & ordinary folks like to quote the old quip about handguns being meant to be comforting, and not comfortable. But when you're wearing one for your job, day & and day out, 10-18 hours a day, after several years you may sometimes desire a bit less artillery and a bit more personal comfort on your own time. If you're expecting to go into Harm's Way, and you have no choice in avoiding it, that's one thing ... (and why I carry a carefully maintained 870 in my unmarked car's trunk, and will probably have to soon carry the rifle assigned to me, as well) ... but if you're going to be spending the afternoon with the fellows on the golf course, or dining and dancing with the little lady, or spending an evening with the fellows at the cigar lounge? Well, personal risk assessment and personal choice come into play, and your perceived "needs" may be different from mine, or some other folks ... and there's nothing wrong with that ...
One thing you might consider, however, is whether your choice of lawfully concealed handguns affects your ability to accurately & controllably shoot whatever you've chosen. Many folks seem to express an opinion that they can more easily, controllably and accurately shoot larger framed pistols & revolvers ... and some claim that one design is "better" for them than the other, meaning revolver versus pistol. I think that this might be a more important consideration in selecting a CCW or off duty weapon than mere "caliber".
If you can shoot a L-frame revolver better than a G17, there's that ...
If you can shoot a L-frame revolver better than a J-frame, then there's that consideration ...
If you can shoot a G17 better than any revolver? Well, then there's that ...
Capacity-wise? Well, I just wish that S&W had been producing their 7-shot & 8-shot .357 Magnum revolvers back when I was carrying a wheelgun on duty. I wouldn't consider myself "under-equipped" if I was carrying one of the new 627 5" 8-shot .357 revolvers for a uniform weapon, or one of the 686+ guns with a shorter barrel (and preferably iron sights ) for plainclothes.
Caliber "power"? Well, that subject has been debated endlessly ... and will continue to be ... and all I'd offer is that once you've selected your preferred defensive handgun, for your perceived needs ... then you should do some research and select the best ammunition available which would suit your needs. There's a lot of good ammunition available nowadays, and more coming out all the time.
The suggestion to browse among the threads at the Tactical Forums, specifically in the Terminal Effects Forum, is a good one.
You should've heard the derisive comments I used to endure when I occasionally carried a Ruger Blackhawk SA revolver (chambered in .44 Magnum or .45 Colt) off duty. Too slow to reload ... too difficult to shoot ... obsolete ... antiquated ... not tactical ... etc., etc.
Until a couple of the guys watched me qualify with one of them, and place a fist-sized group on a target 1-handed & 2-handed, in the same qualification course, as fast as most of the regular folks were able to shoot their 9mm pistols, and faster than many of them. Sure, they're slow to reload ... but the first 6 rounds seemed okay. Of course, as things would go, the head rangemaster later had the policy amended to exclude SA revolvers from being acceptable as off duty weapons. I guess I'll have to wait until I retire to occasionally carry one again.
Anyway, I don't feel that revolvers are outdated when it comes to defensive CCW & off duty weapons ... but I carry pistols more often than revolvers, and when I do carry a revolver it's usually a S&W 642-1 or a Ruger SP-101 chambered in .357 Magnum. Otherwise, it's usually a 9mm, .40 S&W or a .45 ACP pistol, and a compact or subcompact, at that ... and then it's most commonly a 9mm (3913, CS9 or a G26 ... and soon to be a SW99 Compact 9mm). I've got a respectable collection of full size pistols, too.
Personal choice is a wonderful thing ...
I've carried large revolvers concealed off & on over the years. S&W 629 6 1/2", Ruger Redhawk 5 1/2" and S&W 686 4", Ruger Super Blackhawk 7 1/2", just to name some of the larger ones. The 686 was an issued weapon (replacing my earlier 66), so I carried it quite a bit, and mostly with one of the common, "inexpensive" IWB holsters of the day. Shoulder holsters were useful for the larger revolvers.
Of course, I've often also carried smaller revolvers with 2", 2 1/2", 2 3/4" & 3" barrels, but I did still carry larger framed revolvers as off duty weapons. Not very often nowadays ... and mostly for personal comfort reasons.
With the right holster and clothing, and some willingness to accept a bit of personal discomfort in some circumstances, larger revolvers can be carried lawfully concealed ... especially in colder weather when wearing thicker cover garments.
Smaller pistols & revolvers are often easier to carry, though, and more comfortable, as well.
Yeah, I know, I know ... many trainers & ordinary folks like to quote the old quip about handguns being meant to be comforting, and not comfortable. But when you're wearing one for your job, day & and day out, 10-18 hours a day, after several years you may sometimes desire a bit less artillery and a bit more personal comfort on your own time. If you're expecting to go into Harm's Way, and you have no choice in avoiding it, that's one thing ... (and why I carry a carefully maintained 870 in my unmarked car's trunk, and will probably have to soon carry the rifle assigned to me, as well) ... but if you're going to be spending the afternoon with the fellows on the golf course, or dining and dancing with the little lady, or spending an evening with the fellows at the cigar lounge? Well, personal risk assessment and personal choice come into play, and your perceived "needs" may be different from mine, or some other folks ... and there's nothing wrong with that ...
One thing you might consider, however, is whether your choice of lawfully concealed handguns affects your ability to accurately & controllably shoot whatever you've chosen. Many folks seem to express an opinion that they can more easily, controllably and accurately shoot larger framed pistols & revolvers ... and some claim that one design is "better" for them than the other, meaning revolver versus pistol. I think that this might be a more important consideration in selecting a CCW or off duty weapon than mere "caliber".
If you can shoot a L-frame revolver better than a G17, there's that ...
If you can shoot a L-frame revolver better than a J-frame, then there's that consideration ...
If you can shoot a G17 better than any revolver? Well, then there's that ...
Capacity-wise? Well, I just wish that S&W had been producing their 7-shot & 8-shot .357 Magnum revolvers back when I was carrying a wheelgun on duty. I wouldn't consider myself "under-equipped" if I was carrying one of the new 627 5" 8-shot .357 revolvers for a uniform weapon, or one of the 686+ guns with a shorter barrel (and preferably iron sights
) for plainclothes.Caliber "power"? Well, that subject has been debated endlessly ... and will continue to be ... and all I'd offer is that once you've selected your preferred defensive handgun, for your perceived needs ... then you should do some research and select the best ammunition available which would suit your needs. There's a lot of good ammunition available nowadays, and more coming out all the time.
The suggestion to browse among the threads at the Tactical Forums, specifically in the Terminal Effects Forum, is a good one.
You should've heard the derisive comments I used to endure when I occasionally carried a Ruger Blackhawk SA revolver (chambered in .44 Magnum or .45 Colt) off duty. Too slow to reload ... too difficult to shoot ... obsolete ... antiquated ... not tactical ... etc., etc.
Until a couple of the guys watched me qualify with one of them, and place a fist-sized group on a target 1-handed & 2-handed, in the same qualification course, as fast as most of the regular folks were able to shoot their 9mm pistols, and faster than many of them. Sure, they're slow to reload ... but the first 6 rounds seemed okay.
Of course, as things would go, the head rangemaster later had the policy amended to exclude SA revolvers from being acceptable as off duty weapons. I guess I'll have to wait until I retire to occasionally carry one again.Anyway, I don't feel that revolvers are outdated when it comes to defensive CCW & off duty weapons ... but I carry pistols more often than revolvers, and when I do carry a revolver it's usually a S&W 642-1 or a Ruger SP-101 chambered in .357 Magnum. Otherwise, it's usually a 9mm, .40 S&W or a .45 ACP pistol, and a compact or subcompact, at that ... and then it's most commonly a 9mm (3913, CS9 or a G26 ... and soon to be a SW99 Compact 9mm). I've got a respectable collection of full size pistols, too.
Personal choice is a wonderful thing ...
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tbeb
Member
I'll take a 17-shot 9mm over a 7-shot .357 magnum.
mainmech48
Member
IMHO, it all boils down to a matter of what you personally can shoot best with. Either one can be concealed adequately by most persons of average stature, given proper choice of clothing and carry rig.
No matter what the caliber, accurate shot placement is the single most important thing. Whatever you choose, systematic training and practice will do more to help you survive a violent encounter than caliber or magazine capacity will.
Two thoughts: "Fast is fine, accuracy is final." Bill Jordan. "One hit is firepower. A hundred misses are just noise." Attributed to 'Chesty' Puller
No matter what the caliber, accurate shot placement is the single most important thing. Whatever you choose, systematic training and practice will do more to help you survive a violent encounter than caliber or magazine capacity will.
Two thoughts: "Fast is fine, accuracy is final." Bill Jordan. "One hit is firepower. A hundred misses are just noise." Attributed to 'Chesty' Puller
Thank you all for the input. I think I will go with the Glock 17 for now. I've CC'd for almost ten years now and have no problem with the size of either gun but just thinking lately more or less the caliber. As many of you have pointed out that it's more important to hit with what your shooting with than caliber of what your carrying (to some degree).
Boats, that's a pretty good guess but the revolver is a Taurus 627. As far as legally reloading, I always carry a spare mag cause mags don't always work 100% and you may have to cut your loses with what's in your gun to getting something fresh. And although I'm not a civilian LEO and don't have a duty to stay in a gunfight, I'm a pretty well trained military LEO and we can not dictate when or where the SHTF situation will come, like being in the back of the store or drive up ATM, but plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Boats, that's a pretty good guess but the revolver is a Taurus 627. As far as legally reloading, I always carry a spare mag cause mags don't always work 100% and you may have to cut your loses with what's in your gun to getting something fresh. And although I'm not a civilian LEO and don't have a duty to stay in a gunfight, I'm a pretty well trained military LEO and we can not dictate when or where the SHTF situation will come, like being in the back of the store or drive up ATM, but plan for the worst and hope for the best.
For the purposes of this discussion, they are the same. Either will kill you. Either could fail to stop and either could need you to empty the weapon and reload to finish the fight.
Which are you more comfortable with?
That is the gun you should choose.
Which are you more comfortable with?
That is the gun you should choose.
Obviously you would carry the one you are more comfortable with. As for myself, the answer would be my 357 S&W. If the gun is ever needed to be fired in self defence, only the hits count, and I would look to maximize the damage that the hits would do.
I also look at it from a responsibility point of view, if I were to spray the landscape with bullets, the chances increase greatly that a bystander would get hurt.
I also look at it from a responsibility point of view, if I were to spray the landscape with bullets, the chances increase greatly that a bystander would get hurt.
Lone_Gunman
Member
What does that mean?
Motor-T
Member
Why not split the difference.
A Glock G31 carries 15+1 rounds of .357SIG
.357SIG round pushes a 125gr bullet to 1500fps. The only thing a .357SIG gives up to the .357Mag is performance in the higher weight ranges.
A Glock G31 carries 15+1 rounds of .357SIG
.357SIG round pushes a 125gr bullet to 1500fps. The only thing a .357SIG gives up to the .357Mag is performance in the higher weight ranges.
Black Snowman
Member
Whichever you shoot better. That's the A#1 thing. I'd feel OK with 5 shots of .45 ACP, 38 Spl +P, 9mm, etc as long I know I can hit with the package. I want the most oomph for the package that I can shoot well, and that means practice.
In a full size gun that means .357 would be fine for me. I tend to prefer .40 S&W but 9mm is a good round too. You can pick an effective round in both 357 or 9mm so the real questions comes down to what you're effective with.
In a full size gun that means .357 would be fine for me. I tend to prefer .40 S&W but 9mm is a good round too. You can pick an effective round in both 357 or 9mm so the real questions comes down to what you're effective with.
Preacherman
Member
The point that everyone's failed to mention so far is that NO handgun round is a fully reliable "stopper". There are plenty of horror stories out there about .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, and other "top-rated" rounds that failed to do their job in a crunch situation. Sure, some of this may well be shooter-related (poor accuracy, poor shot placement, etc.), but not all of them are like that.
I personally do not regard the 9mm. and/or .38 Special as optimal defensive rounds, having personally witnessed a number of failures with them. However, they are acceptable, and I'll carry a .38 snub with comfort from time to time. This is because I know what I can do with it, and I'm confident in my ability to place the shots where I need to. (A Crimson Trace laser grip helps with these small guns, as the sight picture, particularly in low light, leaves a lot to be desired.)
That said, my preferred carry loads would be .357 Magnum in revolvers, or .40 S&W or .45 ACP in pistols. These rounds do have a significantly better "stopping" record over time, despite the development of modern-technology hollow-point ammunition that is claimed to elevate the 9mm. to almost their level. That may be true when the ammo works as advertised - but there are many occasions when, for any number of reasons, the ammo does not work as advertised. In those situations, I want the extra power of the hotter loads to give me as much of an "edge" as possible.
I have to accept, though, that the most powerful controllable defensive handgun load is less than a third as powerful as a reasonable rifle load (e.g. .223, .30-30, .308, etc.). If I really want stopping power, a handgun is dead last on the list of firearms I'll reach for!
I personally do not regard the 9mm. and/or .38 Special as optimal defensive rounds, having personally witnessed a number of failures with them. However, they are acceptable, and I'll carry a .38 snub with comfort from time to time. This is because I know what I can do with it, and I'm confident in my ability to place the shots where I need to. (A Crimson Trace laser grip helps with these small guns, as the sight picture, particularly in low light, leaves a lot to be desired.)
That said, my preferred carry loads would be .357 Magnum in revolvers, or .40 S&W or .45 ACP in pistols. These rounds do have a significantly better "stopping" record over time, despite the development of modern-technology hollow-point ammunition that is claimed to elevate the 9mm. to almost their level. That may be true when the ammo works as advertised - but there are many occasions when, for any number of reasons, the ammo does not work as advertised. In those situations, I want the extra power of the hotter loads to give me as much of an "edge" as possible.
I have to accept, though, that the most powerful controllable defensive handgun load is less than a third as powerful as a reasonable rifle load (e.g. .223, .30-30, .308, etc.). If I really want stopping power, a handgun is dead last on the list of firearms I'll reach for!
First of all, I fully agree with Litefoot in choosing the G20 10MM (but only if you're going to handload your ammo). For CCW purposes, I say choose which ever you feel the most comfortable with. As my daily gun, I conceal a S&W 4516. I have no problem with that .45 caliber. Prior to that, I used to open carry my S&W 686 .357 Magnum. Now, I load some pretty hot rounds in .357 and I'm pretty accurate with it. I also own a Walther P99 9MM. In my opinion, I don't feel comfortable, secure, confident with a 9MM. I'm more accurate with a .357; 10MM and .45 than 9MM. And hey, I'm going to be honest, if I was in a gun fight, I would hope to have my .357; .45 or 10MM as oppossed to a 9MM.
Something that my old instructor taught me, it's not how many rounds you have in a clip rather how accurate you are with your aiming. I would rather take my chances in my seven shot .357 Magnum than my 10 shot 9MM.
Something that my old instructor taught me, it's not how many rounds you have in a clip rather how accurate you are with your aiming. I would rather take my chances in my seven shot .357 Magnum than my 10 shot 9MM.
Using your .40 barrel in the G20 for practice will bring ammo costs down. Or there are ammo dealers who have great prices on 10mm practice rounds (Georgia Arms and DoubleTap Ammo). Just something else to consider.
Now after having said all that, I would still love to have a S&W 386 to carry backpacking. It wouldn't be much of a range gun...not fun to shoot....but the weight sure fits the bill for lightweight backpacking!
Now after having said all that, I would still love to have a S&W 386 to carry backpacking. It wouldn't be much of a range gun...not fun to shoot....but the weight sure fits the bill for lightweight backpacking!
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fastbolt
Member
Those last two choices wouldn't cause me any confusion whatsoever ...
I wouldn't choose one for the make & model, or the other one for the caliber.
I wouldn't choose one for the make & model, or the other one for the caliber.
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