My Opinion On Some of The Common CCW Handgun Calibers

[LookAtYou]

lookatyou, you have some weird obsession with the 40. you look at numbers and it appears magical to you. But the numbers don't matter if the target can't tell the difference between a 40 and a 9 and a 45 and a 357 and a 380.

Guess what. human targets can't tell the difference between these rounds. Results from the real world demonstrate that. look at Ellifritz's data. all those rounds have the same performance.

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power



bottom line; your opinion means nothing in light of real-world data.

I'm not really obsessed with the .40, or any caliber for that matter. But the point stands that it doesn't matter what caliber the target thinks it's been hit by, hit somebody in the chest with a .380 FMJ or .40 JHP, there will be a difference in wound channel and overall damage. "Real-world data" shows this.

.357mag is also another caliber that is known to be very effective. There are some calibers that do things better than others, not all are necessarily the same.

 

[LookAtYou]

@LookAtYou
Glock 29!
https://us.glock.com/en/pistols/g29-sf
10+1 with optional 15 round magazines. 3.78" barrel.
The 40sw is certainly not as capable as the 10mm.
And the 10mm is not as capable as the 41mag.

They are all good rounds but can fill different purposes.

Out of those calibers, the .40, 10mm, and 41mag, which one will give the quickest and most accurate hits in succession? Also the lightest and easiest to carry, with the most rounds?

 

[LookAtYou]

Imma make some popcorn on the stove for this thread!

I'll give the OP this...at least he started this thread with "My Opinion..."!

Expansion characteristics are design traits. This means that not all hollowpoint ammunition acts the same way. Some will expand at lower velocities, some higher for instance. Therefore you can't generalize this too much by saying things like "often doesn't expand, until you reach like a 4.5"+ barrel".

Sheer size of the round DOES make a difference, but not necessarly the way people may think it does. The difference in tissue damage for round nose, FMJ between varying calibers is really not all that much because of tissue elasticity. Change that to a flat tip bullet and tissue damage becomes more significant between calibers. It can, however, make a significant difference in penetration because the reduction on cross-sectional area can lead to better penetration characteristics through some materials.

Differences in capacity due to caliber differences can make a significant impact, especially when you consider modern ammunition designs have significantly better performance in smaller calibers these days than they did just a few decades ago. Many years ago, when the 9mm first started becoming very popular in the United States, higher capacity pretty much worked to offset the lower performance characteristics of the smaller caliber in comparison to other popular larger caliber rounds of the time.

And finally, which round is "ideal" is as much a personal thing as it is an objective performance thing. Some people just cannot easily handle some cartridges and the firearms designed around them compared to others. I can't think of many, if any at all, that my wife could shoot effectively in the .40 caliber cartridge, either because it would present overly difficult issues for her or she simply wouldn't enjoy shooting it.

What one considers "ideal" in calibers will legitimately vary from one person to another for many reasons because of factors such as these.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I can say that because it is what I've seen from compiled data. The slower velocity of .45acp, due to the heavier bullet, causes it to have problems expanding once encountering an object. The .40, in a 3.5" barrel can reliably expand, so can 9mm. Not so much 230gr .45acp...

 

[LookAtYou]

This picture is all over the web.

No no no. All handgun rounds perform exactly the same! Here’s proof!

View attachment 1101772

Of rounds all designed to perform exactly the same.

The premise, to make all rounds perform “The same” involves minimum and maximum X inches of Penetration. That I don’t necessarily believe.

And, expansion, that I don’t find all that critical.

I want accuracy and, penetration. If it expands, at the cost of penetration, it’s not a good trade off for me.

Poke a hole. Poke the biggest hole you can. Poke it all the way through.

The magic bullet that started all this debate was the 9mm Silvertip in Miami. That round hit Platt in the arm. Entered his chest and, stopped before it hit his heart.

9mm ball would likely have penetrated his heart, and probably the opposite side lung.

Anyway. The caliber war is somewhat interesting. But, is absolutely a dog chasing it’s tail.

If I’m in a lightly populated area, I carry .357 Magnum 158 GR Hardcast.




View attachment 1101786View attachment 1101785

Is that a 3"? If so, I'd highly recommend carrying the .357mag Speer Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel JHP ammo. Or the .357mag 125gr Hornady Critical Defense.

 

[sgt127]

Is that a 3"? If so, I'd highly recommend carrying the .357mag Speer Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel JHP ammo. Or the .357mag 125gr Hornady Critical Defense.

No. I’ll take a hardcast flat point as you see.

I really can’t emphasize enough how important penetration is for me.

If it collapses, a hollow point just pokes a narrow hole. If it expands, it’s a parachute.

 

[LookAtYou]

No. I’ll take a hardcast flat point as you see.

I really can’t emphasize enough how important penetration is for me.

If it collapses, a hollow point just pokes a narrow hole. If it expands, it’s a parachute.

You don't need a .357mag 158gr Hardcast flat point for adequate penetration. That's severe over penetration in a human target. A quality .357mag JHP would serve you better, and penetrate adequately.

 

[WisBorn]

Out of those calibers, the .40, 10mm, and 41mag, which one will give the quickest and most accurate hits in succession? Also the lightest and easiest to carry, with the most rounds?

As I stated they are all good cartridges and can serve different purposes.
The 40s&w is easier to get back on target than the 10mm or 41mag. If shooting speed and capacity is what you are looking for continue to carry the 40.
The 10mm has decent capacity and energy and shines for wilderness carry where your first threat is man, but four legged threats may be your second.
The 41mag is still alive only because of old Fudds like me that carry it in the woods. We want the first shot or two to count and are not worried about about shot number ten because the first couple of shots are delivered with authority.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

For CCW 10mm guns are too big. Not that it cant be done, but a 10mm with a barrel less than 5" is not performing much better than a .40 with the same barrel length. 10mm is also giving much more flash and sound with a short barrel. For CCW, .40 is a no brainer option, unless you have no brain, by all means, carry a 10mm.
To me, hollow points are useless. They are only to show face for legal reasons. I would rather be using hardcast for all purposes. I made the move to Lehigh Xtreme Defender rounds, they perform like hollow point with no chance of clogging up. Like hollow points, they are not perfect, but quite a few steps closer to it.
I dont trust the FBI and any information they put out, you'd be wise to do the same.
Xtreme Defenders can be driven fast or slow and still perform well. Wether you like low recoil or need more power out of the same projectile, it can be done.

 

[sgt127]

You don't need a .357mag 158gr Hardcast flat point for adequate penetration. That's severe over penetration in a human target. A quality .357mag JHP would serve you better, and penetrate adequately.

Ok.

I’ll take the hardcast flat point.

Now what?

 

[StrawHat]

My opinion…38/357 - Performance might be there but revolvers are low capacity.

How many shots do you think you will fire before the bad guy(s) start returning fire?


Kevin

 

[Buzznrose]

And as long as you can achieve good hits, a bigger, deeper hole is better. .25acp or 9mm for self-defense?

I guess if you consider .25 ACP a proper defensive cartridge…

I don’t.

I don’t consider anything below 9MM a proper defensive cartridge. Just my opinion I am entitled to, as you are yours.

I do carry a .380 mouse gun LCP from time to time when I don’t want to carry a gun…but it’s better than nothing, but I don’t consider it a proper defensive handgun.

 

[Varminterror]

Three pages in, this hasn’t disappointed too be disappointing.

 

[fxvr5]

I don’t consider anything below 9MM a proper defensive cartridge. Just my opinion I am entitled to, as you are yours.

I do carry a .380 mouse gun LCP from time to time when I don’t want to carry a gun…but it’s better than nothing, but I don’t consider it a proper defensive handgun.

Apparently you do consider the 380 a proper defensive round, because you are carrying it. (Actions speak louder than words.)

If you don't trust your life to it, why would you carry it?

 

[CDW4ME]

38/357 - Performance might be there but revolvers are low capacity.

How many shots do you think you will fire before the bad guy(s) start returning fire?
Kevin

Click on profile, look under areas:
CDW4ME - 2,743 posts - revolvers 17 for .006% - I basically stay out of revolvers forum.
StrawHat - 4,856 posts - revolvers 1,651 for .33% - One third of your posts are in revolvers forum
Apparently you consider a revolver sufficient for self defense (including your above question in that assessment); whereas, I think they are low capacity.
I'm not wasting my time to try and change your mind and it would certainly be a waste of time to try and change mine.

 

[Buzznrose]

Apparently you do consider the 380 a proper defensive round, because you are carrying it. (Actions speak louder than words.)

If you don't trust your life to it, why would you carry it?

There are a few men who live strictly by rules and code they set for themselves…very disciplined people who only eat right, exercise daily, never compromise. I have my personal compass too, but I bend from time to time….

Why carry a .380 LCP when I don’t see it as proper? Compromise…Convenient…Peace of mind…and it’s better than a sharp stick.

I eat fast food sometimes…I don’t consider it proper nutrition.

By “proper carry gun/cartridge”, my thoughts have evolved to situations greater than bad breath distance.

Recent real world shootings made me decide to baseline my proper carry guns as those that I can shoot to 25 yards very well (4” group offhand). I can’t do that with my LCP or my LCR. These days, I have a hard time doing that with most of my open sight pistols! Thus, my primary carry guns all have red dot sights and are all 9MM.

I’ve never shot at a real world threat. But I believe if/when it happens, my accuracy will likely be much worse than on the range, so I’m expecting 8-10 inch groups at 25 yards.

Your thoughts and standards are yours. I don’t expect to change them. Mine are mine…and they have evolved. I suspect they will continue to. But for now, based on the world we live in and my personal limitations, the right and proper gun for me is a red dot 9MM with 15 rounds like a G43X/G48/G19, because they are absolutely reliable and I shoot them well.

 

[TarDevil]

I eat fast food sometimes…I don’t consider it proper nutrition.

A Hardies burger kills you over time.

So does a .380.

You made a good point.

 

[WisBorn]

A Hardies burger kills you over time.

So does a .380.

You made a good point.

The 380 stops an attack.
The fast-food gives you a Heart Attack

 

[sgt127]

Two holes are better than one. Cast bullets with big meplats get it done in handguns.

I think we agree as my quote (stolen from a good friend) is:

Poke a hole. Poke the biggest hole you can. Poke it all the way through.

I think people underestimate the size and density of some of the threats running around on two feet out there.

 

[.308 Norma]

The 380 stops an attack.
The fast-food gives you a Heart Attack

 

[JayZee]

Poke a hole. Poke the biggest hole you can. Poke it all the way through.

We talking about guns right..? Lol.

Anyways, I'm not convincing anyone or convinced by others that xyz is the best for abc.
If you think when the time comes that it will suffice, then so be it.
Accuracy, reliability and training come before size of caliber or weapon.

I like the 9MM and the 10MM and for me the 40 is just there "because".

I use my 9MM for most social carry but will carry a .32ACP in a P32 or a Beretta 81 also.

The 10mm is great for the woods, and I prefer it to .45acp with the reason being sectional density is better grain for grain.
I don't go out of my way to shoot or own a .40 although I do both. It's just another tool and I never see myself thinking "the 9 wouldn't do it but that .40 would" because I just grab the 10MM and stop messing with "shirt and weak" cartridges.

 

[LookAtYou]

Speaking of 9mm...

 

[StrawHat]

…StrawHat - 4,856 posts - revolvers 1,651 for .33% - One third of your posts are in revolvers forum
Apparently you consider a revolver sufficient for self defense (including your above question in that assessment); whereas, I think they are low capacity.
I'm not wasting my time to try and change your mind and it would certainly be a waste of time to try and change mine.…

I believe we can agree on this!

I am guessing you are well versed in self loading pistols. I am not. Nor do I have the time or inclination to study them. I do know revolvers and am quite comfortable with them. You stick with yours, I will stick with mine and we should both be comfortable.

Kevin

 

[sgt127]

Speaking of 9mm.

Yes. That appears to be a 9mm.

 

[sgt127]

I carry a little bit of just about everything. Depending on where I am. What I’m doing.

Normal day to day in my very low risk environment. A Ruger SP101. Loaded with hard cast .357 Magnums. And a spare speedloader. If I’m futzing around hiking in the desert, same, but a Speedloader of Snake shot in my pocket too.

In the “big city” I carry a Sig P239 DAK in .357 SIG with 2 extra mags.

But, you might find me with a Seecamp .32. Or even .25 if I need to be invisible.

When I visit my kid in California, and we are hanging around the beach, it may be a 2 shot All aluminum .38 Derringer. Loaded with 148 GR wadcutters.


I’m blessed. I have great choices. I’m pretty good with all of them. (Well, the Derringer is about minute of crack head at 10 ft).

What you carry. What you load in it is trivial to “have a gun”.

Anything further is minutia.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I can say that because it is what I've seen from compiled data. The slower velocity of .45acp, due to the heavier bullet, causes it to have problems expanding once encountering an object. The .40, in a 3.5" barrel can reliably expand, so can 9mm. Not so much 230gr .45acp...

Again, expansion is a design characteristic. One hollowpoint bullet does not expand reliably under all potential velocities it can be loaded for. It's designed for an optimal expansion in a given range of velocities.

The 230 grain Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints have the same "slower velocity" of my standard 230 FMJ target ammo (about 850 fps, give or take) and have excellent expansion characteristics at that velocity.

Buy the hollowpoints which reach their optimal velocities in the pistol you shoot them from, whatever the caliber.