CCW concerns relating to ammo

[shootingthebreeze]

esquare, yes, we are responsible for our protection-and yes, police respond if a B&E is in progress-to include responding to any other crime in progress-yet, if a crime is in progress then would you not call 911? We can hold the fort so to speak, for a while but in we are not police. So we need them if a crime is going down.

 

[Hardtarget]

Post 22 said exactly my thoughts. The Bg doesn't often want witnesses. The most by-standers are present when the police locate and make an arrest. Yes, I know that there are accounts of a crime going down in crowded areas, but, most of those I hear of are gang involved. I don't go places where that is likely to happen. I also know that BG's have cars and go where they want to go.

Its a lose/lose situation for people that just want to live.

Mark

 

[therewolf]

I'm more concerned with seeing the ammo hit where it's supposed to go in the first

place. As in hitting what I wasn't shooting at vs shooting through the RIGHT thing.

We see a lot of SD guns with, IMO, alarmingly SHORT barrels.

I certainly don't claim to be the best shot, but I put all my rounds inside the

target body cavity at 7 yards with a standard pistol with a 5" barrel.

Kudos to anybody who can do the same with a 3 or 4 inch barrel. I surely

doubt I could do the same with a shorter gun.

Personally, I'm finding that after I leave the range, with an autoloader I can

easily switch from JRN to defense ammo with the change of a magazine.

 

[Bubba613]

The idea that there will be a bunch of innocent bystanders around to be hit by your return fire when the bad guy threatens you is a real stretch. BG's do their thing when you're ALONE. They pick isolated victims.

It is very rare for bystanders to be hit by the good guys, whether the good guys are police or civilians.

Regarding bullet effectiveness I offer this:

Quoted for truth.
People act like defense incidents among private citizens happen every day at the mall or downtown during rush hour.
They do not.
I'd love to see 10 incidents where private citizens had a pass through. Missing is much more common.
I chalk this thread up to yet another internet phenomenon. If we listen to enough of these no one will want to carry anymore.

 

[Yo Mama]

Eddie, I stated earlier that our instructor did not care what caliber we carried upon CCW license. It was just a safety issue at his live fire exercise which he requested to include proper firing technique and accuracy which is better attained with a smaller caliber.

What is the safety issue? I think that's what alot of folks are asking about. How is a .22 any safer than my .45?

I'm much more accurate as well with my .45 than my .38.

It's just a weird/inconsistent way of training/testing.

 

[jad0110]

Quote:
The idea that there will be a bunch of innocent bystanders around to be hit by your return fire when the bad guy threatens you is a real stretch. BG's do their thing when you're ALONE. They pick isolated victims.

It is very rare for bystanders to be hit by the good guys, whether the good guys are police or civilians.

Regarding bullet effectiveness I offer this:
Quoted for truth.
People act like defense incidents among private citizens happen every day at the mall or downtown during rush hour.
They do not.

I suppose it depends on where you live and spend your time. If you live out in the middle of nowhere, it would be more likely than not that no one else will be around when the fecal matter strikes the air circulation device. If you are in the middle of town quite a bit, it is likely that there may be folks within at least a couple hundred feet. Well within the danger zone for a miss.

I live in a pretty low crime area, but we've had some pretty blatant criminal acts occur. Last year there was a stabbing directly in front of the main entrance of the local Wal-Mart, 5 minutes from my house. Under the cover of mid-day. On a Saturday. Is Wal-Mart jam packed at 12 PM on Saturday? Does a bear poop in the woods? In fact, I had just left through that entrance an hour earlier. Had my 4" Ruger Police Service Six on my, IIRC. Same parking lot a few years early saw a thug purse snatcher attack an elderly woman with a base ball bat at 10 am. A McDonalds in another part of the county got robbed at 1 PM on a Sunday. A stop-n-rob on a county over getting stuck up at 2 in the afternoon.

Sure, most crime will likely go down when no one else is around, but then again your typical law breaker (at least those around here) may not be bright enough to think of that. Part of my practice involves taking a knee to shoot (obviously dry fire only), trying to simulate a crowded environment with no good backstop behind the BG. This has the drawback of limiting my mobility, but if I miss the round won't skim along the ground at people level for a long distance. It'll just go up in the air and come down at one point (still a danger involved however). Not saying this is a good tactic in all situations, but it may have limited applicability. The trick is remembering it.

To the OP, as other posters have mentioned, missing the BG and striking another person is a much greater threat than over penetration. In that regard, folks that state something to the effect of "I'm a poor shot and don't have time to train, so I won't carry a 6 shot revolver or 7 shot 1911. Instead, I'll make up for a 90% miss rate with a hi cap <insert make/model here>." That kinda spray and pray strategy thing might work if you live in a very rural area, but in a crowded town like I live in it just won't cut it. The way my instructor put it, he said that generally the military trains to put so much lead down range that eventually, a BG walks into a piece of it. But we are responsible for each shot we fire. I agree with your instructor there, just not on some of the specifics on caliber selection. YMMV.

In the end, I the guidance I take heart is to: 1) carry a reliable gun that will be carried and not left in the car; 2) points/aims as instinctively as possible for you personally. 3) If more than one caliber is available, select the caliber that meets the FBI's 12" penetration protocol (if possible), while trading off ammo costs between calibers and capacity differences if applicable, 4) become proficient on that platform and 5) prepare you mind as much as possible for that deadly encounter, God forbid it ever comes.

That's kinda generic, but it has to be given that we no 2 of us are alike.

 

[Bubba613]

In that regard, folks that state something to the effect of "I'm a poor shot and don't have time to train, so I won't carry a 6 shot revolver or 7 shot 1911. Instead, I'll make up for a 90% miss rate with a hi cap <insert make/model here>." That kinda spray and pray strategy thing might work if you live in a very rural area, but in a crowded town like I live in it just won't cut it.

How many people have posted that this is their strategy?

As for the rest, this is how the internet works: Take one incident plucked from somewhere and make it into the norm. Take the BGs and make them either incredibly stupid and inept or incredibly smart and skilled and build the argument from there.

Point is: WHile there is some risk from over penetration/missing into innocents, that risk is greatly over-stated. The risk of not having a gun, or not being aware of your surroundings is a much greater one.

 

[jad0110]

How many people have posted that this is their strategy?

No one on this particular thread, but I've seen something basically like it stated here on THR and elsewhere. I've heard it stated in person by others at gun shops, shows, etc. Not the norm, certainly, but the attitude does exist.

The risk of not having a gun, or not being aware of your surroundings is a much greater one.

Agreed, 100%. As I said, I think the probability of striking an innocent with a miss is related to where you spend most of your time. Overall, I agree the risk is probably overstated. But where I live it is certainly something to take into account.

 

[IBEWBULL]

Some folks are new to this subject and I understand why the post was made.
I must make my point though to the newbies and vets too, know your weapon and the rounds you use and know what it will do down range.
Can you hit a head size target at 2 yards, 7 yards, or 10 yards?
Can you focus under stress?
Will the round do it's job after passing through a heavy garment, a windshield or other barrier?
Depending on a mall frame LCP Ruger or derringer may get you into more trouble than it can get you out of. Something to ponder when using it becomes a reality.
I recall a story from about 1972 where an off duty officer shot someone five times with .38 RNL in a bar who was armed with a .22 carbine. The perp. did die, after he beat the officer to death with the .22. I have no idea as to the size of the people involved in this event. But keep in mind a 350 pound person will absorb more punishment than a 150 pounder. Not counting the state of mind of each.
Know how to shoot and hit your target, know what your rounds will do.
I have never talked to someone who carried different rounds in his weapon, not yet anyhow. There could be reason to do it if you think about what the purpose really is.
Just like a shotgun, first round bird shot,2 nd 4 buck, 3rd 00 buck,4the and 5th slug.
My reasoning, penitration and range. I can always shuck a round out if the bird shot is not needed.
Handgun, first round Glasier or pre frag, followed by HP, the glasier is no mericle worker but if used as it was designed for it will do its job. This one was designed for the sky marshalls a long time ago to minimize over penetration on an aircraft. I shot a large groundhog in my garden once with it, 2 shots were required and a nasty enterance wound was made with no exit.
Sometimes I think bullets are designed to atract shooters like fishing lures are to fishermen. Marketing and hype being my point here. Remember the Black Talon?
This was an example of hyping the product too much and getting the attention of the media and backfiring in the face of the advertising campaign.

 

[mljdeckard]

If you think battlefields are free-fire zones, you haven't seen one lately. Rule #4 ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS applies, no matter who you are or what you are shooting at.

Overpetration. OF COURSE it will overpenetrate. That's why I use powerful guns. I wouldn't trust it to save my life if it wasn't likely to completely traverse a human target. That's what I WANT it to do. I will always err on the side of too much gun.

Minimizing the likelihood of hitting something past the bad guy that you don't want to is something you need to do in other ways. Plan a defensive strategy for your house. Make sure that likely fields of fire don't have people sleeping in them. Out in public, you need to always be aware of your environment, and have it in the back of your mind, if the place you are standing in RIGHT NOW is too crowded to shoot in. You may be forced to choose whether or not to shoot. You need to do things like, train to take a knee if necessary, to change the trajectory of your shots.

Remember, in real life, not all of your shots are going to hit the bad guy. There is ALWAYS a risk of hitting something you don't want to. Deadly force is dangerous, this is why it must be regarded so gravely. The real-world truth is, innocent bystanders getting hit by defensive return fire is actually a rare event, and when you are fighting for your life, you will NEVER get the perfect shot. You STILL need to act.

 

[mljdeckard]

AND IBEWBULL, I will never trust my life to frangible ammo. Or stagger loads in any defensive arm. Realize, that you just said, you need different loads because you never know what you are going to confront, but then you followed it with a plan that tries to PREDICT EXACTLY THAT.

 

[jad0110]

Out in public, you need to always be aware of your environment, and have it in the back of your mind, if the place you are standing in RIGHT NOW is too crowded to shoot in. You may be forced to choose whether or not to shoot. You need to do things like, train to take a knee if necessary, to change the trajectory of your shots.

Yep, just as Bubba points out. I ought to have mentioned such in my post above. As I was typing, I suppose I thought awareness goes without saying. The best way to avoid hitting an innocent is to avoid/escape the danger in the first place.

As for taking a knee, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who trains to do that. Again, I have to do it with an empty weapon as there are no backstops high enough in my immediate area to be safe with live ammo. Another reason to load up some wax bullets I suppose.

 

[mljdeckard]

I started a thread once, asking if it shouldn't be a primary plan, most people said it takes too long to be a reasonable option, but I still think its a good idea to be ready to do it if you need to.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by CTI1USNRET: The idea that there will be a bunch of innocent bystanders around to be hit by your return fire when the bad guy threatens you is a real stretch. BG's do their thing when you're ALONE. They pick isolated victims.

Your being "alone" does not mean that there will not be other persons in your general direction of shooting within the lethal range of your weapon.

It is very rare for bystanders to be hit by the good guys, whether the good guys are police or civilians.

Self defense shootings are also very rare, but carrying a firearm for self defense is prudent risk management.

The likelihood that one might hit a bystander when firing in self defense may not be high, but the potential consequences are extremely severe even if one does not employ a spray and pray tactic that could be considered criminally or civilly negligent. It is thus a risk that should be mitigated rather than accepted without reasonable mitigation.

Posted by writerinmo: .38 would be the smallest caliber that I would even consider carrying as a self-defense round, and then only if for some reason a 9mm, .40 or .45 wasn't available.

That's the way I see it.

Considering all of the possible scenarios, your best defense is to practice, practice and practice even more with whatever your choice of firearm might be. And not slow paced target shooting, I agree, although you obviously need to know where your firearm is hitting before progressing further in advanced training. If you hit where you want to hit, under pressure, then missing your target is not as great a concern as if you buy a gun, shoot it twice a year and the rest of the time it sits in a holster or on a table.

Yes, but I would add that one should select a carry weapon with which he or she can hit reliably.

I read a lot of posts about people crying about the round passing through and hitting an innocent.

I think that that's a lot less likely than hitting an innocent when missing the intended target, but it is a risk with severe potential consequences, and it can be mitigated to some extent by selecting JHP bullets and by staying away from weapons or loads known for excessive penetration (which provides you with no tactical advantage anyway) that may be excellent choices for hunting game.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

Kleanbore message #39- excellent comments and I agree with all.

As well, other posters have made excellent comments on an important topic. Had to smile relating to Ibewbull's comment on ammo marketing. It's up to the consumer to research and make the good choices.

 

[rocky1]

{Insert appropriate name here}, I stated earlier that our instructor did not care what caliber we carried upon CCW license. It was just a safety issue at his live fire exercise which he requested to include proper firing technique and accuracy which is better attained with a smaller caliber.
That's all. He had no reservations relating to what people would carry upon getting their CCW.

His instruction was excellent, he is a certified instructor, his instruction was to the point and took 2 days to complete, including legal and live fire.

Just thought I'd go ahead and say it for you again, as I'm sure you'll have to say it 3 - 12 more times before the thread goes away!


Part of that equation is the reason you might want to yell, "Drop your weapon, or I'll shoot!", before squeezing the trigger. While it does give the BG time to aim at you, it also gives innocent bystanders a chance to duck or run.

Of course, if shots have already been fired, there's no need in alerting the BG, everyone is already running, ducking, and crapping their pants.


Such thoughts have crossed my mind before and that's why I carry Hollowpoints in my 45... Rapid dissipation of energy, no over-penetration, and ultimate stopping power for that round.

And, to further fuel argument on the ultimate caliber issue, I don't remember where I read it, so I can't cite source, and I believe it was quoted there in fact, but realizing that ultimately stopping power is defined by size of the wound channel or cavity and the damage done within the body and further that anything 380 or bigger is capable of adequate penetration to hit the vitals, on average. Upon which subject, the gentleman stated that there was one thing he was reasonably certain of in respect to stopping power, and that was... "A small bullet MIGHT expand and make a big hole, but a big bullet isn't going to get any smaller!"

OK... now y'all can go back to arguin about what caliber is gonna do the job better, without injurin innocent bystanders.

 

[mljdeckard]

rocky-

If you think your .45 won't overpenetrate (adequately penetrate) a human target most of the time, you need to look again.

 

[rocky1]

Point well taken mlj, I realize the 45's capablities, and that is one of the reasons I shoot it. I was thinkin more along the lines of hollow points not over-penetrating on old fat guys like me. Crackheads are usually much skinnier and the potential for overpenetration would certainly exist there.

 

[mustang_steve]

What we need is forensic information or a surgeon's information regarding calibers used as opposed to gelatin tests.

The data is out there, however it's a matter of accumulation of the data in a meaningful way. Only then can we have a realisitc representation of performance of any caliber, loading or projectile design.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

rocky1, the warning before shooting was covered in class.

Good point.

Jacketed Hollow Point (the larger the hollow point the better) with higher caliber rounds.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by mustang_steve: What we need is forensic information or a surgeon's information regarding calibers used as opposed to gelatin tests.

The FBI report cited above explains the problem with trying to assess "stopping power" using actual experience:

There is a problem in trying to assess calibers by small numbers of shootings. For example, as has been done, if a number of shootings were collected in which only one hit was attained and the percentage of one shot stops was then calculated, it would appear to be a valid system. However, if a large number of people are predisposed to fall down, the actual caliber and bullet are irrelevant. What percentage of those stops were thus preordained by the target? How many of those targets were not at all disposed to fall down? How many multiple shot failures to stop occurred? What is the definition of a stop? What did the successful bullets hit and what did the unsuccessful bullets hit? How many failures were in the vital organs, and how many were not? How many of the successes? What is the number of the sample? How were the cases collected? What verifications were made to validate the information? How can the verifications be checked by independent investigation?

Because of the extreme number of variables within the human target, and within shooting situations in general, even a hundred shootings is statistically insignificant. If anything can happen, then anything will happen, and it is just as likely to occur in your ten shootings as in ten shootings spread over a thousand incidents. Large sample populations are absolutely necessary.

Here is an example that illustrates how erroneous small samples can be. I flipped a penny 20 times. It came up heads five times. A nickel flipped 20 times showed heads 8 times. A dime came up heads 10 times and a quarter 15 times. That means if heads is the desired result, a penny will give it to you 25% of the time, and nickel 40% of the time, a dime 50% of the time and a quarter 75% of the time. If you want heads, flip a quarter. If you want tails, flip a penny. But then I flipped the quarter another 20 times and it showed heads 9 times - 45% of the time. Now this "study" would tell you that perhaps a dime was better for flipping heads. The whole thing is obviously wrong, but shows how small numbers lead to statistical lies. We know the odds of getting a head or tail are 50%, and larger numbers tend to prove it. Calculating the results for all 100 flips regardless of the coin used shows heads came up 48% of the time.

The greater the number and complexity of the variables, the greater the sample needed to give meaningful information, and a coin toss has only one simple variable – it can land heads or it can land tails. The coin population is not complicated by a predisposition to fall one way or the other, by chemical stimuli, psychological factors, shot placement, bone or obstructive obstacles, etc.; all of which require even larger numbers to evidence real differences in effects.

There are just too many variables.

The same thing applies when assessing "real" penetration. In addition to the bullet design and velocity, penetration will depend upon what the subject is wearing, the physical make-up of the subject, where the bullet enters, whether it happens to expand as intended, and what the bullet hits or misses inside the body.

The same factors will influence whether the bullet will exit the body, and if it does, with what remaining energy. I found it interesting that, according to the cited report, the skin on the exit side provides the same resistance to penetration as four inches of muscle tissue.

Useful conclusions? Well, (1) you cannot reasonably expect one shot, or perhaps two or three, to stop a determined violent criminal actor reliably unless one happens to destroy CNS, and one cannot count on that; (2) more "bang" than necessary won't help, because (a) more penetration than is necessary is a useless commodity, and (b) recoil can hinder follow-up shots; (3) one cannot necessarily count on bullets stopping within the target, but one can choose a load that will reduce the likelihood; and (4) the ability to hit a target repeatedly and very quickly, under stress, with an adequate load, with very minimal "misses", is what it's all about.

 

[Bubba613]

Useful conclusions? Well, (1) you cannot reasonably expect one shot, or perhaps two or three, to stop a determined violent criminal actor reliably unless one happens to destroy CNS, and one cannot count on that; (2) more "bang" than necessary won't help, because (a) more penetration than is necessary is a useless commodity, and (b) recoil can hinder follow-up shots; (3) one cannot necessarily count on bullets stopping within the target, but one can choose a load that will reduce the likelihood; and (4) the ability to hit a target repeatedly and very quickly, under stress, with an adequate load, with very minimal "misses", is what it's all about.

Yes, there are too many variables, especially ones you can't control.

But the flip side is that one shot stops do happen and you may not need to fire 3or 5 or 15 rounds into the attacker before the attack is neutralized.

 

[writerinmo]

I wouldn't bet that shouting a warning before shooting would accomplish anything other than having everyone turn to witness you shooting someone... people are like dairy cattle, they will turn and just looky-lou until their brain can comprehend what is taking place. Like a LEO chasing a BG down a sidewalk, people get mowed down because they can't react to what they are seeing fast enough.

 

[hiawatha]

Great thread! Shootingthebreeze, thanks for starting it. Myself, I have never been able to hit my target with a .45, so I won't carry one. I can definitely hit what I'm aiming at with a .44 Russian, but I can't conceal that hogleg. I can also hit what I'm aiming at with a Glock 17 or a S&W Terrier (Model 32, I think) - 2" barrel .38 S&W. The Terrier's good for in the house because it'll be used at very close range and won't over-penetrate, and the .38 S&W has more steam than a .380. The Glock, loaded with HP, will work for the rest of the world.

 

[-eaux-]

8 or 9 times out of 10, any handgun round is not going to exit a live flesh-and-bone man-sized threat, even at the magical 7yard range.
I think the perrenial "4 Rules" apply in an SD situation just as much as they do at the range or plinking cans in the backyard, or hunting meat for the freezer in the woods.
That being said, unless you carry a .454 or .480 for SD, I haven't seen enough documentation of overpenetration by your average 9mm Luger or .45acp or even the engine block busting .357mag causing collateral damage to justify NOT carrying at least 9x19mm or preferably .45acp.
Follow the 4 Rules instinctively, because it is ingrained in your muscle memory. If you're casting rounds downrange toward a hostile, there's a good chance you should be running away rather than having pulled your CCW.