CCW concerns relating to ammo

[therewolf]

As stated previously in another thread, discussions such as these can serve to raise all our awareness about SD issues.

Then, hopefully, we can all decide for ourselves in advance what steps we can take to minimize the chances of doing

something, in the reflex of SD, which we would regret for the rest of our lives.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

therewolf, well said. One may be justified in a self defense situation yet could also be sued and essentially lose all savings and property.
One thing that stuck during my CCW class was avoid dangerous, suspect areas. Another one, opt to retreat/escape a situation.
In other words, avoid conflict at all cost and take steps to do so, at all cost.
As you said, raising the awareness relating to self defense is important and cannot be brushed aside in a cavalier fashion. If your round strikes a bystander accidently you, the shooter, even if in the process of defending yourself can be prosecuted criminally. Don't think that cannot happen. On a lesser charge, that wounded person could sue the pants off you reducing you to poverty.
I don't even want to consider the situation of a bystander being killed in a self defense situation. One could see serious fallout there.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

hiawatha, I was lucky to have had excellent instruction in the US Army by some instructors over the years with the .45 which caused me to become quite proficient with the .45, even with the overused issued .45 which was my sidearm.
Firing a new .45 like my Springfield Champion is quite an experience because it's not like our old .45s the Army had before the 9mm. Using my training, the accuracy with my Springfield is very high. The feel and balance suits me.
I opt, though for 38+P jacketed hollow point, the bigger the hollow point the better. Remember what was discussed about wound channel. The larger the wound channel the more bleeding. Tissue is tougher than you think believe me having worked in surgery as a nurse I know and if you have a small wound channel the tissue will seal off.

 

[REB]

The whole problem with the over penetration argument is in real life encounter most shots fired are likely to miss the intended target in the first place. It's one thing to practice shooting at a target, it's a completely different thing when the target is shooting back at you. The NYPD has studied this for decades and found that there is a complete disconnect between range accuracy and combat accuracy. In their studies for the three to seven yard range only about 11% of the shots fired by the officers hit the intended target. They have tried different training techniques over the years but the statistics stays right around 11%. The bottom line in my opinion is in a real life shooting situation you can not count on hitting the intended target and must be aware of what is behind that target when making the decision to shoot or not. That taken into consideration I want the biggest hole and as much penetration as I can get within reason.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

REB, really good point, especially being aware who is behind the perp-and good information relating to real world versus range accuracy.

 

[Craig_AR]

The effectiveness of a CCW firearm in real world situation is directly correlated to whether you have it with you. Therefore, the caliber selection should include finding a reasonably sized gun that you can holster, conceal, and have appropriate clothes for that does not become a heavy weight burden, to be left at home. Well prepared dressed, and equipped 1911 owners can carry day and night without being bothered by the size or weight. Smaller owners, who do not figure out a CCW wardrobe and holster set up may soon find a 1911 too much trouble, always pulling their pants down, printing, or other wise becoming semi-open carry. Smaller .380's, .38SP, 9mm, .40, etc, might be better in the long run for those folks. If you are considering a Judge, especially the new shortie CCW model, be sure to take all of this into consideration.

As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, caliber is only part of the story. Bullet and load are also part of the equation. Except for those poor folks living in New Jersey, I cannot imagine why anyone would carry ball ammo. Some form of hollow point is the way to go. Further, frangibles like Glaser bear a close look as maybe the best answer to overpenetration.

I am no expert on this topic, I just read a lot in the forum and elsewhere. For the size and weight aspect, I picked a .38+P snubbie (S&W 642), so that I have a decent pocket gun. And yes, I do practice at the range regularly (although not 300 rounds a month), generally at 7 to 30 feet.

Happy new year, all!

Craig

 

[driftrider]

When the new law goes into effect on the 1st and I finally get my CCP, I plan to carry something in 40 S&W because it's both reasonably effecting at stopping a threat quickly, and it's because that's what most LEO's in the area carry for their duty weapon. The former is obvious, because if I am unfortunate enough to have to shoot someone, I can only hope that I only have to shoot them once or twice, not three or four times before they no longer threaten me. The second reason is just as a precaution against civil liability. The logic is that if you choose a cartridge that is the same as what law enforcement uses to protect themselves, and if the level of force would not have been excessive had I been a LEO using said cartridge, then it follows that my use of the same cartridge is also not excessive. The day I have to argue that in civil court is one I hope never comes, but it never hurts to be prepared.

As for the whole "nothing bigger than a 38 Special or .380ACP in class," what if the student doesn't have anything other than, say, a 40 S&W? Will he turn them away? I've shot .38 Spec +P in a S&W Airweight snub nose, and .380ACP in a Ruger LCP, and I have to say that the 38 +p is much more of a handful in a 15oz snubbie with a tiny grip, and the LCP is much harder to aim well, than a Sig 229 or XD Compact in 40S&W. Making me much more likely to hit what I'm aiming at, which is far less dangerous to bystanders than if I miss the first shot with the .380, or the 2nd with the .38 snubbie.

I might also suggest that the issue of overpenetration/misses be addressed in some cases by seeking low or high cover when possible (it's highly prudent to seek the closest available cover as quickly as possible after the firefight erupts) such that one may fire up/down toward the target, and/or move to a place of cover that removes bystanders from your line of fire. Hopefully, none of us will ever be faced with a lethal force encounter in our lifetimes.

 

[mustang_steve]

Kleanbore,

The one-shot stop is a goal that nobody has an idea how to obtain besides "more power"...which is why forensic info is needed, to show what each caliber does when used in the typical manner as far as defense is concernred.

It's pretty safe to say the more aggressive the wound is, the more likely it is to stop. However, if a round can penetrate enough, it may be adequate in skilled hands...so it's worth seeing what overpenetrated, what managed to get through the ribs and what typically fails, etc.

Even that FBI article missed the point of what they were saying with the coin toss analogy, as the coins are not precisely balanced on each side and the flip and catch stages vary greatly....thus is also effected by many variables.

The point is to bring actual information and not simulated data to the table, which would reduce the number of unkowns we have now. It's basically a good step forward to having as relevant data as possible.

Gelatin provides a nice simulation, but that's all it is, an estimate.