New gun owner with OC/CCW questions and concerns

[Freezebyte]

Greetings all, I'm a new addition to the gun world and anxious to learn as much as I can about my weapon, rights and freedom as a US citizen. I'll cut to the chase, i've been thinking about a firearm for some time and decided to go for it this Christmas. Needless to say, Santa was VERY good to me this, so I decided to up my original purchase of a .22lr Browning Buckmark camper to a more versatile Springfield XD(m) 9mm. I feel I made the right choice and I can't wait to get to the range with my friend and start practicing with it!

I"ve just recently started researching the concealed weapon and open carry laws in Montana and I was surprised to find our laws pretty lenient towards carrying guns in such a way. Being born and raised in Montana, I've never seen anyone besides police carry an open firearm at their sides. I can't help but think what it would be like if I tried to do the same, excersing my rights and freedom.

Below is our state laws
http://opencarry.org/mt.html

I'm also have some trouble interpreting the state law in whats lawful and whats not so i've got the following questions/concerns

A: Exactly what do I say to folks if I ever carry an open firearm in a general store like Wal-Mart? How do I back up my rights and freedom? What situation/places should I NEVER carry an open gun to prevent public panic and/or a police call about me?

B: What reasons/situations can I be arrested onsite for carrying an open weapon, regardless of my rights/laws?

C: If im afraid about what people will say/react to a firearm at my side, I hate to upset people let alone start an argument. Should I even attempt to carry out my rights/freedom as a US armed citizen for this reason alone?

D: Exactly what are the differences in OC vs CCW laws and regulation? When would I want to OC and when would I want to CCW? If am lawfully able to OC, why should I bother with getting a permit for CCW?

Thanks for any incite or advice for a noobie to the gun world

 

[Freezebyte]

No one?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A: Exactly what do I say to folks if I ever carry an open firearm in a general store like Wal-Mart? How do I back up my rights and freedom? What situation/places should I NEVER carry an open gun to prevent public panic and/or a police call about me?

Check your state and local laws. It's a good idea to go through the course and get you Concealed Handgun License anyway, and while there, you can ask these questions.

B: What reasons/situations can I be arrested onsite for carrying an open weapon, regardless of my rights/laws?

Check your local laws. Carry a copy of the law with you -- so you can show it if anyone interferes with you.

C: If im afraid about what people will say/react to a firearm at my side, I hate to upset people let alone start an argument. Should I even attempt to carry out my rights/freedom as a US armed citizen for this reason alone?

I really don't care about how people react, as long as I am legal. Frankly, if more people carry openly, so much the better -- it "desensitizes" people to the sight of guns and educates the police regarding the law.

D: Exactly what are the differences in OC vs CCW laws and regulation?

Again, check your state and local laws. Take the CHL course -- that should answer most of your questions.

When would I want to OC and when would I want to CCW? If am lawfully able to OC, why should I bother with getting a permit for CCW?

We need open carry because your shirt tail might inadvertantly lift and show your gun -- with open carry, you're legal.

We need concealed carry because your shirt tail might inadvertantly fall and conceal your gun -- with a CHL, you're legal.

 

[rbernie]

No one?

Dude - it's only been forty minutes since you originally posted.

I do not know the laws of Montana; I live in Texas. But in general, if OC is legal then no license is needed. CCW requires a license from the state.

Most states allow private entities (businesses) to prohibiut CCW and/or ask CCW to leave. I would presume that OC is similar; if asked to leave private property, you must leave or be subject to criminal trespass charges.

Most states will have restrictions on where you can OC or CCW; courthouses, polling places, schools, and such are generally forbidden under any circumstances. Many states do not allow OC or CCW in bars; you will need to check your state laws on that.

When I OCed in Virginia, I woulld occasionally get a visit from the police due to 'man with a gun' calls to 911 placed by non-gunnie types. The police were invariably polite and nice and just wanted to verify that all was well. I remained polite and chatted with them while they ran me thru NICS, and all went well. Yes, I resented the intrusion but could not fault the police for that; they had no choice but to respond to the call.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Most people don't realize it's legal. It can be good for letting them know that: yes, we are free citizens and YOU TOO can carry a firearn if you are an honest citizen. If you want to avoid confrontation get your concealed carry license and nobody will be the wiser (plus you can do the famed "wal-mart walk" wiith nachos) to make sure you are properly concealed

 

[louie19]

You should check out The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry by Massad Ayoob. He goes into detail about CCW, different holster types, and also covers Open Carry as well.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I kind of like the Virgina approach. Open carry is legal in Virginia, with few restrictions. the CCW law, however, outlaws carrying concealed in an establishment that serves alcohol. Since most restaurants serve alcohol, you cannot CCW in a restaurant.

So Virginians take off their jackets when they go into a restaurant, and carry openly while dining.

 

[jahwarrior]

A: Exactly what do I say to folks if I ever carry an open firearm in a general store like Wal-Mart? How do I back up my rights and freedom? What situation/places should I NEVER carry an open gun to prevent public panic and/or a police call about me?

say nothing, unless someone asks you about it. if you're in walmart, be aware that their corporate policy is to follow the laws of whatever state they're in. they can still ask you to leave, however. as far as where you should never carry openly, that's entirely up to you. i carry openly when the weather allows. the laws in PA allow for open carry, so there's little the police can do about it.

B: What reasons/situations can I be arrested onsite for carrying an open weapon, regardless of my rights/laws?

again, that depends on the laws in your state. if Montana allows OC, i'm sure you can't get arrested for simply walking aorund with a holstered weapon.

C: If im afraid about what people will say/react to a firearm at my side, I hate to upset people let alone start an argument. Should I even attempt to carry out my rights/freedom as a US armed citizen for this reason alone?

you can't worry about upsetting people. you have a clearly defined right to carry a gun; nowhere in the Constitution does it say people have the right to be comfortable. if they get upset, that's entirely on them; they choose to be scared of an inanimate object, which is, by definition, irrational.

D: Exactly what are the differences in OC vs CCW laws and regulation? When would I want to OC and when would I want to CCW? If am lawfully able to OC, why should I bother with getting a permit for CCW?

the only answer i have for this is: most states make you pay for a license/permit to CC. that makes concealing a weapon a privilege. most of these same states require no license/permit to open carry. there are little loopholes in this, however; for example, you need an LTCF to carry concealed, but not to OC. however, you need one to CC or OC in Philadelphia, because it's a city of the 1st class (a million+ residents). also, carrying while driving a car is considered concealed, so to drive while armed, you need a LTCF. this last reason is why i have a license. that, and i pretty much CC during the winter.

 

[red dirt ranger]

I'm as pro-gun as anyone, but a guy open-carrying in Walmart bothers me. I don't know the guy and I don't know if he is a threat or not. I can live with it, but carrying in a setting where you know it will upset folks and cause you unnecessary delays with managers, police etc is not a good idea in my opinion. It's also poor tactics.

 

[jpatterson]

Looks as if Montana is a good state for OC. I wouldn't take this website word-for-word with the laws, though it seems like pretty good information. http://www.opencarry.org/mt.html

However based on your C question, I would just apply for and get a CHL. I have nothing against open carry and I support it, but it's just not what I would do personally. I'd rather not have everyone know that I am carrying a handgun (sounds like you wouldn't either). Nothing against OC'ers, it's just not my bag.

 

[jpatterson]

Oh wow you already had the opencarry.org site linked right there! Sorry!

 

[jahwarrior]

I'm as pro-gun as anyone, but a guy open-carrying in Walmart bothers me. I don't know the guy and I don't know if he is a threat or not. I can live with it, but carrying in a setting where you know it will upset folks and cause you unnecessary delays with managers, police etc is not a good idea in my opinion. It's also poor tactics.

why exactly would it bother you? do most felons in your town OC?

as far as tactics are concerned, OC is a viable tactic, as viable as CC.

 

[Superlite27]

but a guy open-carrying in Walmart bothers me. I don't know the guy and I don't know if he is a threat or not.

So if he conceals it, he's less of a threat? Or do you just prefer to be unaware of those carrying firearms like the majority of people do? Can you please explain to me why the firearm you can see is more dangerous than the one that is hidden?

Do police officers scare you? They carry those scary guns in plain view. Or does the fact that they have a magical "badge" talisman make everything alright?

So we're back to the idea that only police officers should have guns.

Somehow, the idea that people shouldn't open carry because it is frightening doesn't sound right coming from someone on this forum.

I would expect something like that on the Brady site.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

A: Exactly what do I say to folks if I ever carry an open firearm in a general store like Wal-Mart? How do I back up my rights and freedom? What situation/places should I NEVER carry an open gun to prevent public panic and/or a police call about me?

While open carry is a personal choice and is legal in many jurisdictions, there is a good chance you will be asked to leave or be harassed by police if you carry openly in a place like a Walmart. I do not open carry except in places where it has already become customary.

B: What reasons/situations can I be arrested onsite for carrying an open weapon, regardless of my rights/laws?

People can and do get harassed by law enforcement for open carry regardless of the laws, depending on the attitude of local law enforcement and others who might be present. Arrests, if made, are usually for trespass or disturbing the peace.

C: If im afraid about what people will say/react to a firearm at my side, I hate to upset people let alone start an argument. Should I even attempt to carry out my rights/freedom as a US armed citizen for this reason alone?

That is a good reason to get the permit and carry concealed.

D: Exactly what are the differences in OC vs CCW laws and regulation? When would I want to OC and when would I want to CCW? If am lawfully able to OC, why should I bother with getting a permit for CCW?

If you are lawfully carrying concealed:
- No one will ask you to leave a business, church, etc. because you are carrying because they will not know.
- You will not become a target of a disarm attempt (assuming your concealment is good).
- You will retain the element of surprise if you have to draw.
- Any friends, acquaintances, friends of friends, future employers, future fathers in law, landlords, etc who are anti-gun will not base their dealings with you on a dislike of your carrying habits because they will not be aware of them. That way, you can choose who, when, and how you engage in 2nd amendment activism.
- You will not get arrested for assault because you got in an argument and someone felt threatened by the combination of what they thought you said, your body language, and the presence of a weapon.
- Your chances of getting arrested and convicted of weapons violations in the event you inadvertently enter an area where guns are prohibited while armed go way down.

As for the laws, they vary considerably from state to state. While there are places where OC is permitted but permitholders cannot CC, they are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[red dirt ranger]

If I'm a perp and I am about to rob or wreek mayhem in a business and I see someone open-carrying, step #1 is to walk up behind him and pop him in the back of the head. RIP, he was a patriotic, pro-gun, card carryin' patriot-- but a dead one.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If I'm a perp and I am about to rob or wreek mayhem in a business and I see someone open-carrying, step #1 is to walk up behind him and pop him in the back of the head.

That happens all the time -- which is why you can't hardly walk down the street without stepping on the bodies of dead cops.

Cops not only carry openly, but wear uniforms, too, so the perps can spot them easily.

 

[Superlite27]

If I'm a perp and I am about to rob or wreek mayhem in a business and I see someone open-carrying, step #1 is to walk up behind him and pop him in the back of the head. RIP, he was a patriotic, pro-gun, card carryin' patriot-- but a dead one.

Now this is a different reason. Your first was that the OC'er might be a bad guy. Now it's because HE will be the first target. Which is it? Is the bad guy the OC'er, or the one who shoots the OC'er? Next, it will be anyone with a gun.

What is your primary arguement? You can't keep changing after each one gets shot down.

You second argument is more valid. This is the reason I personally don't OC. Yet I'm not going to argue against anyone who chooses to do so. IT IS THEIR RIGHT. It has nothing to do with me........or YOU.

So in your first scenario, we've established that OC'ers frighten you more than CCW'ers even though you are more aware of their gun (which should make you feel safer than NOT knowing where it's at). You have still failed to offer a reason why an openly carried firearm is more dangerous (to you) than one that is hidden.

In your second scenario, we've established that OC'ers might be the first ones targeted......which still doesn't affect YOU.

So. Any more resons you can come up with to take other people's rights away from them? I can't seem to figure out how these have any bearing on YOUR safety. Please come up with some other ideas on how other people's safety puts yours in danger. I'm blowing all the ones you are currently using to smithereens.

 

[jahwarrior]

If I'm a perp and I am about to rob or wreek mayhem in a business and I see someone open-carrying, step #1 is to walk up behind him and pop him in the back of the head. RIP, he was a patriotic, pro-gun, card carryin' patriot-- but a dead one.

yes, because most criminals are brave souls who willingly put their lives on the line to steal something.

most crooks will see a guy with a gun, and walk on out. they're criminals for a reason: they don't want to work for a living. crime is lazy, and taking on an armed citizen is too much work. besides, most criminals are not as smart as you give them credit for. trying to be all stealthy and perform a ninja stealth kill isn't exactly a normal part of liquor hold-up artist's repertoire.

your post is full of FAIL.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

This kind of thinking -- "If a criminal sees you have a gun, he'll just shoot you first" is second cousin to the anti-gun argument, "If you have a gun, he'll just take it away from you."

 

[red dirt ranger]

I don't want to hijack this young man's thread into an open-carry/concealed debate. I don't care how other people carry. I don't depend on knuckleheads walking around OC in Wallyworld for my safety.

So far as the OP's question. Get to know your state law. You can find a synopsis of all state laws on the NRA/ILA site. If you can't interpret it, you can call NRA or the AG's office of the state in question for an interpretation. Gun forums are a poor place to get legal opinions.

 

[Superlite27]

I don't want to hijack this young man's thread into an open-carry/concealed debate.

You already have by pointing out that OC'ers are a threat.

I don't care how other people carry.

You already stated you DO because you see them as a threat.

I don't depend on knuckleheads walking around OC in Wallyworld for my safety.

Then ignore them.

"knuckleheads"? Are you referring to fellow gun owners?

Gun forums are a poor place to get legal opinions.

Agreed. But a great place to debate "knucleheads", huh?

 

[Kevin108]

I was wondering why this thead looked so familiar. Seems the OP's alter-ego is on XD Talk as well. ;-)

 

[FoMoGo]

If I'm a perp and I am about to rob or wreek mayhem in a business and I see someone open-carrying, step #1 is to walk up behind him and pop him in the back of the head. RIP, he was a patriotic, pro-gun, card carryin' patriot-- but a dead one.

If this is what happens, find me all of the news reports of it.
OC is a deterrent, It is much easier to take on an unarmed person.
You can look at it another way.
You are in a place, your firearm nicely concealed.
Perp walks up behind you and jams a gun in your back.
Now, he has the drop on you... we shall naturally assume that he is chambered and finger on the trigger.
You may be Bob Munden, you still wont be faster than his finger twitch.
He demands your wallet, as you reach back you either print or show your weapon.
With his gun in your back he either pulls the trigger, seeing you as a surprise threat... or he demands your weapon.
Now he has 2 guns, and your money... and possibly your life.

Will this happen? Probably not.
But it is as likely as your random head popping perp.
Most criminals are not killers, unless taken off guard or cornered.
Some do kill for fun... but they normally pick soft targets.

Your logic is seriously flawed.


Jim

 

[FoMoGo]

Now... to the OP...
I live in Va and open carry 7 days a week 52 weeks a year.
I strap it on when I get dressed and take it off when I get in bed.
And it sits on my night stand when I sleep.
I would go to the montana forum on open carry.
You will find people closer to your local with first hand experience.


Jim

 

[Vern Humphrey]

This "if you open carry the perp will just shoot you" is the kind of sophistry you always see about guns -- Sarah Brady is great at generating it.