CCW Friend killed by knife wielder

[Island Beretta]

and here I was worried about AK47s.. A few weeks ago a CCW holder friend of mine was killed by a knife wielder. The CCW holder and the knife wielder it appeared had an altercation outside of a nightclub.

The killer pulled a knife, not knowing that the other guy had a gun and attacked. In it all, the CCW holder got off 4 shots, 2 missed and 2 hit the knifeman in his chest. The rounds were 115 grains 9mm corbons. The CCW holder's gun then jammed. It was whilst attempting to clear the jam that the fatal stab was delivered. The knifeman was hospitalised but survived.

I praise my friend's quickness in presenting the weapon and the shots went to COM but I think he made the mistake of not moving, overestimating the effects of the shots and/or underestimating the lethality of a knife at contact distance. I really can't help but wonder if it was a .357 magnum, or .45 cal. if the effect would have been different or if the gun hadn't jammed etc. In such situations you blame any and everything but what to do..he's gone.

Friends at the scene said he did everything right given the situation but the knifewielder was very determined. H____ was always good-natured and was more of a sportshooter (very good too) than a combatant; in the end that may have been what made the difference.

RIP, my friend.

 

[Scottmkiv]

I'm very sorry to hear that

 

[Devonai]

My sincerest sympathies, sir.

Nobody is going to blame your friend for not having enough training, etc. As my martial arts instructor used to say, sometimes you can do everything absolutely right and still get killed.

I hope this scum hangs from the highest branch.

 

[BerettaNut92]

I'm sorry, Island Beretta

 

[IRONFIST]

My condolences to you for the loss of your friend. Too bad the knife-wielding goblin didn't expire.

 

[meathammer]

How awful. I'm sorry Island Beretta.


--meathammer

 

[JerryM]

That is tragic. I think most people whether they carry or not underestimate the danger of a knife at close range. It is deadlier than the gun if the knive wielder can get close enough to make contact.

I don't know if another caliber would have been better.
I have been one who thinks that a BUG is a waste of time for a CHL holder. In this case it might have made a difference, but who knows whether he had time to get it into action.

It would be interesting to know what gun he was carrying. I wonder if the jam might have been caused by contact preventing the gun from cycling?

Sorry for the loss of your friend. These things are so final, and cannot be redone.

Jerry

 

[proven]

my condolences of course. remember the good that your friend brought to this world, and keep that close.

brian

-if matters go badly now, they will not always be so.-
-Horace

 

[Trebor]

My condolences.

Personally, I don't think caliber would have made any difference. Handguns are compromise weapons and the belief in the "one shot stop" and the "perfect handgun round" are largely myths.

The gun jamming probably did make a difference, More rounds on target never hurt and the fact that he tried to unjam rather than retreat or continue the fight some other way when faced with a knife probably also made a difference.

In the end though, I wasn't there, so all I can do is speculate. Sorry it ended badly for your friend.

 

[Edmond]

That is an sad situation. It's sad that your friend had to lose his life.

May I ask what model gun it was?

 

[Wedge]

Sorry to hear about your friend.

 

[rl2669]

Sorry to hear about your friend. In spite of preparedness, training, tactics, and equipment, sometimes evil prevails.

I am a bit surprised to hear that CCW permits are available in Jamaica. Can you elaborate on this point?

 

[GSB]

Wow, bad news. Sorry to hear it. My condolences. 2 COM shots with 9s and no stop -- makes me seriously reconsider going back to the Kimber Ultra Carry as my primary CCW.

I assume you posted this for analysis as well, so I hope you don't mind if I think on this a little, since although tragic, this one looks like it deserves some serious consideration by all CCW holders.

I wonder if the outcome would have been different if your friend had simply run for all he was worth after his firearm malfunctioned (assuming that were possible). Could a guy with 2 COM wounds chase him down? Of course, it's easy to analyze from my comfortable chair. I don't know how I would have reacted in the same situation -- I don't think any of us who have not been in a life or death confrontation do, and there is no way to simulate that. It sounds like he had the presence of mind to try to do a malf clearance, but it also looks like there is merit to the advice "If you're not shooting, you should be moving".

 

[.45&TKD]

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

I think we could all benefit from knowing what model handgun jammed.

 

[fastbolt]

Island Beretta,

My sincerest condolences for the loss of your friend.

If anyone has the right or privilege to analyze the actions of your friend, it's you ... and I appreciate your willingness to post the information you've shared.

fb

 

[Aikibiker]

I am sorry to hear about your friend.

My father has a scar on his chest where he shot a man attacking him with a knife. The shot was fatal to the attacker, but not immediately so. The man with the knife was still able to close and attack before he expired. Knives are tough to deal with.

IMHO the make of the gun is unimportant. Fighting at contact range is nothing at all like shooting at the range. It is fast, the positions are awkward to say the least, and stuff is flying all over the place. Who knows what caused the jam that ultimately took this man's life. His weapon may have been a piece of junk. He may have limpwristed because he was trying not to get stabbed while he fired. He may have fallen during the assault and landed his pistol in the mud. He could have been shooting from a close retention position and his cover garment got fouled in the slide. Heck a shell casing could have bounced off the badguy and flown back into the ejection port. There are just to many what ifs involved to make any sort of determination.

Island Beretta, my condolences once again on the loss of your friend. His death diminishes us all. I would have liked to shoot with him. I'll bet he was a fine man.

 

[ThreadKiller]

1) Shoot n' move
2) Shoot n' move
3) Shoot n' move
4) Expect failure to stop


How many more times am I going to read about shootings/knifings outside of nightclubs/bars? Perhaps this could have been avoided?

Sorry to hear of your loss.

Tim

 

[MP5]

I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps another reminder that one of the easiest ways to avoid trouble is to avoid bars and nightclubs. IMO, anyone with a gun around shouldn't be drinking, either. (I'm not implying your friend was.)

 

[Edmond]

I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps another reminder that one of the easiest ways to avoid trouble is to avoid bars and nightclubs. IMO, anyone with a gun around shouldn't be drinking, either. (I'm not implying your friend was.)

I understand what you mean. I personally don't go into bars and nightclubs. My friends think it's weird because I tell them that I don't like the potential danger of it all. They all laugh at me and say, "You like guns and your martial arts stuff, but you think going into a bar is too dangerous?"

 

[Island Beretta]

I didn't post the gun's name because I do not know if any potential litigation issue could arise. It is however 'one of the better' gun make on the market.

The jam seemed to have been cause by contact being made with the slide so ejection and feed got mixed up.

Yes, I posted this for information sharing and learning..we can prepare as much as we want but sometimes we have to learn from other people's experiences (unfortunate as it may be) to make us learn better, quicker and less tragically.

The things that comes to mind with this are:

1. Equipment choice: when,where and what- do we have the proper ones given what we might face. For e.g. going to a nightclub do I carry a revolver as the main weapon since an incident might be more close contact than say a drive by shooting.

2. General self-defense skills: Do we place too much reliance on gunhandling skills?? What are our fitness levels, mental sharpness, hand to hand combat skills??

3. Situational assessment: Do we downplay threats because we think they 'would not dare' or they have 'cooled' down now.

 

[Edmond]

3. Situational assessment: Do we downplay threats because we think they 'would not dare' or they have 'cooled' down now.

That's a big one because I think that quite a few of us may think that because we're carrying, we have the ultimate advantage. Our guard is let down and we become too confident and put our safety into that sole gun.

 

[MP5]

That's a big one because I think that quite a few of us may think that because we're carrying, we have the ultimate advantage. Our guard is let down and we become too confident and put our safety into that sole gun.

I take awareness and security even more seriously since I became a gun owner. To me, owning and regularly practicing with potentially deadly weapons is a healthy reminder of just how much damage they can do, the potential for malfunctions or bystanders getting shot, legal/criminal ramifications of violent conflict, etc.

 

[The Rabbi]

I didn't post the gun's name because I do not know if any potential litigation issue could arise.

Oh, good. Gun makers are already being sued because their products kill people. Now they can be sued because their products dont kill people.

 

[PBIR]

Sorry to hear about the loss I.B.

I'd say there are at least a few factors to consider from this story:

1) As others have more or less said, a knife in close combat is very dangerous. It can in fact be argued that it is more effective than a handgun in up close and personal combat due to the fact that a deep tearing/penetrating wound is easily achieved.

2) Like you said yourself, non-firearm oriented self defense capability. Having a gun on your hip doesn't make you unkillable. Far from it. I see a lot of guys in the store that have a ccw but would be lucky to clear leather with a physically fit attacker charging them with steel.

3) Avoiding potential trouble spots in the first place seems to be a good policy.

 

[Buck Snort]

I'll catch hell for saying the BUT, if he'd been using a REAL gun he probably would be alive today. HOW MANY TIMES have we heard of BGs taking multiple 9mm rounds and not going down? Yeah, yeah, I know, it can happen with any caliber but the 9mm has a bad history in that regard. I don't know what load he was using but I'd bet my last paycheck he was not using +P loads.