CCW Holder Charged with Murder

[Jeff White]

No details. But the fact he was charged with 1st degree murder does suggest that it might not be self defense. Even a questionable self defense shooting probably only would have been been 2d degree or manslaughter.

Some of you guys want to tell me again that a CCW holder would never do such a thing because he wouldn't want to give up his permit after jumping through all the hoops it takes to get one.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...FEF6F0B58A05C2A38625716200121CD1?OpenDocument

Man with gun permit is charged with murder in shooting
By Bill Bryan
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
05/02/2006

ST. LOUIS

A man charged with first-degree murder in a weekend street shooting appears to be the first person with a concealed-carry permit to be accused of using a firearm in a violent crime in St. Louis, police said Monday.

Randolph Stevens, 58, held a valid Florida permit, police said, which allowed him to carry a concealed gun here under an agreement between the states. Stevens lives in St. Louis.

Once Missouri's concealed-carry law was passed, it became common for residents to obtain permits from concealed-carry states that offer reciprocity but do not require residency. Some applicants found they could take advantage of the new Missouri law more quickly that way, as St. Louis and St. Louis County were slower than most Missouri jurisdictions to implement the permit provisions.

"It's the first case I've heard about here in St. Louis where a person accused of a violent crime has had a concealed-carry permit," said police Capt. James Gieseke, commander of the Crimes Against Persons Division. Several other officers also said they could not recall such a case.

Stevens, of the 3400 block of Giles Avenue, was charged Sunday with first-degree murder and unlawful use of a weapon in the killing of Henry Kotyla, 52, of the 3700 block of Gravois Avenue.

Kotyla was shot to death with a .45-caliber handgun during a quarrel on the street about 9:30 p.m. Saturday in the 3400 block of South Grand Boulevard. Police recovered eight shell casings at the scene, where they also got information that Stevens was the shooter. The charges said Kotyla suffered 14 wounds.

Stevens was arrested later Saturday night at his home, where police reported finding six guns.

Police were not certain of the nature of the quarrel between the two men. Stevens said he was on his way to the store at the time. The two men might have known each other, police said.

Robert Patrick of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report.

[email protected] 314-340-8950

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Some of you guys want to tell me again that a CCW holder would never do such a thing because he wouldn't want to give up his permit after jumping through all the hoops it takes to get one.

I am unable to discern exactly what you are trying to say, Mr. White.

Are you trying to start up a CCW bashing thread?

 

[WayneConrad]

JeffWhite said, "Some of you guys want to tell me again that a CCW holder would never do such a thing because he wouldn't want to give up his permit after jumping through all the hoops it takes to get one."

Well, I'm not one of those guys. I'd tell you that a CCW holder is statistically unlikely to commit violent crime. I wouldn't try to guess why, and I wouldn't say "never."

 

[TexasRifleman]

Are you trying to start up a CCW bashing thread?

He's entitled... there have been enough cop bashing threads to last a while.....

As with cops, and CCW carriers, and plumbers, and..... there are ALWAYS a few bad apples to make the rest look bad.

 

[jlbraun]

Statistically, CHL holders are between 8 and 11 times less likely to be arrested for a crime, depending on the study. From Gun Facts 4.0, I believe. That's the mantra to keep in mind. Sooner or later we're going to find that one guy.

 

[HighVelocity]

That report is too vague to draw any conclusions about anything other than a guy with a permit killed somebody.
The possible reasons are infinite.

 

[ArmedBear]

Clearly, he wasn't just shooting to wound.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

[jlbraun]

One never shoots to wound. One shoots to stop. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're shooting to wound, your life was never in danger. If you continue shooting after the threat has ceased, your life is no longer in danger.

OTOH, one has difficulty gauging when precisely the threat stops when under stress.

 

[Eleven Mike]

Stevens was arrested later Saturday night at his home, where police reported finding six guns.

Oooh, he must have been planning more killings!

This reporter should go back to J-school. That line should read:

Stevens was arrested later Saturday night at his compound, where police reported finding an arsenal of six deadly assault weapons.

 

[Eleven Mike]

One never shoots to wound. One shoots to stop. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're shooting to wound, your life was never in danger. If you continue shooting after the threat has ceased, your life is no longer in danger.

OTOH, one has difficulty gauging when precisely the threat stops when under stress.

This ain't the strategy and tactics dept.

 

[ArmedBear]

OTOH, one has difficulty gauging when precisely the threat stops when under stress.

True.

The guy probably should have stopped at round 12 or 13, but under stress, the 14th round of .45 ACP seemed necessary.

 

[ArmedBear]

This ain't the strategy and tactics dept.

True. It seems not to be the dark humor and nuance department, either.

 

[Leanwolf]

ARMED BEAR - "Clearly, he wasn't just shooting to wound."

Don't be too sure, A.B.

The report stated there were eight empty .45 ACP cases at the scene... and the dead man had 14 wounds (obviously some through-'n-throughs).

So maybe the shooter WAS shooting to wound... but he just wasn't sure what a "wounding shot" was. (??)

L.W.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Some of you guys want to tell me again that a CCW holder would never do such a thing because he wouldn't want to give up his permit after jumping through all the hoops it takes to get one.

Jeff, no one said that. All we say is that as between a person without a CCW license and a person with one, the person with one is less likely to be the type to pull his gun on a cop, therefore, it follows logically, that you should not demonstrate a greater degree of suspicion towards the CCW license holder than you do towards the non CCW license holder, but in fact you do just that.

You have set yourself up a nice straw man, and knocked it down by digging up some case of a CCW license holder being CHARGED with murder. I bet that, on occasion, even Boy Scouts are charged with serious crimes, but are you going to demonstrate more suspicion towards a Boy Scout than a person picked at random? At some point, logic has to prevail.

 

[mbs357]

How long has he had the permit?
Surely he didn't get the permit just so he could legally carry long enough to find his victim.

 

[Jeff White]

No, I'm not starting a CCW bashing thread. In other threads when members complaned that it was a violation of their rights and I pointed out that anyone doctor, lawyer, teacher, nurse, truck driver, supreme court justice...was capable of reacting badly even violently to a routine encounter with a police officer.

No one accepted that explanation even though that has been my personal experience. In this thread I even posted the censure document for former Illinois Supreme Court Justice James D. Heiple and it detailed all of his unfavorable encounters with the police.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=197982

Of course it was dismissed out of hand with the comment that anyone who took the trouble to get a CCW permit wouldn't do anything bad and jeopardize his permit.

If I wanted to start a CCW bashing thread just like the cop bashing threads my post would have been something like this:

Okay guys this is proof positive that you can't trust any CCW holder. They mail off to Florida to get a permit so they can walk the streets with a gun and then they murder people. The fact that he left the scene proves it was murder. Never trust one. If a CCW indicator pops up on a person's record in the computer prone him out...Don't give him any chances, if he so much as blinks at you shoot him. Train to shoot with your strobes on.

But my post wasn't like that. Although all of those things have been posted here when it comes to dealing with the police. I did take a little literary license with the strobes part, the cop bashing post I was trying to emulate was about how well the member could see his sights with flash bangs going off.

But to do that would have been petty and not at all in keeping with the mission of THR. In fact, I believe that there should be Alaska/Vermont stye carry nationwide. The only restriction I'd put on it would be a requirement to notify a police officer you were armed if you have contact with one.

I personally think the Brady crew will have a field day with this. CCW is still pretty new in Missouri. The people who opposed it made a big deal that it lost on a state wide referendum (don't mention the probable vote fraud, they don't care). I predict that any day now we'll here how a good man, even if he was a dirtbag with a criminal record, is dead because the Missouri legislature passed concealed carry to pay off the gun lobby against the will of the people.

HighVelocity said;

That report is too vague to draw any conclusions about anything other than a guy with a permit killed somebody.
The possible reasons are infinite.

Very true. But the fact that he left the scene and they charged him with first degree murder gives us a reason to believe it might not be a straight self defense shooting. I hope for the CCW movement and RKBA in general it is.

Jeff

 

[Cosmoline]

That report is too vague to draw any conclusions about anything other than a guy with a permit killed somebody.
The possible reasons are infinite.

Exactly. And if you conclude there must have been murder because the local DA makes that charge, I have a bridge to the Ketchikan airport I can sell you up here for cheap.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Of course it was dismissed out of hand with the comment that anyone who took the trouble to get a CCW permit wouldn't do anything bad and jeopardize his permit.

Jeff, again, you are merely recasting things people have said in absolutist terms. No one said what you relate here. You are using strawman arguments, rigged to make you the winner by default.

 

[Cosmoline]

The guy probably should have stopped at round 12 or 13, but under stress, the 14th round of .45 ACP seemed necessary.

The charges said Kotyla suffered 14 wounds.

What's seven times two? Don't put it past the lawyers to count EXIT WOUNDS as well. Only a rank fool trusts those snakes, and that's coming from a snake.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Jeff, as a LEO you should know that being accused does not mean being guilty. You certainly chose an inflammatory way to introduce the story: You wrote, "Some of you guys want to tell me again that a CCW holder would never do such a thing ..." without even identifying what the "thing" is.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

It's a statistical probability. Sooner or later it will happen. The fact that it happens so rarely that it's news should be the news issue here.

Not sure how many CCW's there are now. However, if 1 in a million does something illegal and/or stupid then I'm OK with that.

 

[Ryder]

Sounds like he was attacked on his way to the store to me.

There was a lot of resistance in St. Louis to shall issue. I'd guess this prosecutor had dogs in that fight and got tired of waiting to prove himself right. The permit holder is charged with first degree murder as incentive to plea bargain lower. That is generally how the system works.

You're going to have to wait for the jury on this one Jeff. Good try though

 

[CraigJS]

Let's wait untill he's found guilty, OR NOT before carrying this too much farther....

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. White I suspected it to be something like that. You are too smart to give up the moral high ground. And where would Mr. Eatman be? having to pull the plug on a ccw bashing thread.

Even though nearly everybody I forumulate with agrees that the guy must have been an idiot to leave the scene, not call the cops and at least not police his brass, nobody yet has chosen to make this appear to be an "Us vs Them" thing.

I was hoping that you were not.

Most of us are probably right. He must have been an idiot. Just because there is such sketchy information, there is no reason for us not to jump to conclusions.

 

[jeepmor]

14 wounds....

He was using DT Equalizers.......maybe. Or yes, they simply counted holes.

NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION TO DRAW ANY CONCLUSIONS OTHER THAN SOMEONE IS DEAD.

The rest is internet blah, blah