CCW Holder Charged with Murder

[ElTacoGrande]

With millions of permit holders out there, it's inevitable that a permit holder will sooner or later commit Murder 1. With millions of cops out there, it's inevitable that a cop will sooner or later commit Murder 1 (in fact they just busted a couple of NYPD's finest who were mafia hitmen on the side). With millions of nuns out there, it's inevitable that some sister will sooner or later commit Murder 1. Etc. You get the idea.

Permit holders seem to have a surpringly low crime rate, and a phenomenally low murder rate, but these rates aren't zero. The ones who do go to the dark side and commit murder probably would have done it with or without permits. Almost all murders in the US are committed by non-permit-holders even though most of the US is shall-issue.

 

[HankB]

But the fact that he left the scene and they charged him with first degree murder gives us a reason to believe it might not be a straight self defense shooting.

He may be guilty as sin.

He may be a victim of an over-zealous, politically motivated DA, as happened to a CHL holder here in Austin, TX several years back . . . that case resulted in an acquittal in the shortest time on record for jury deliberations in Travis County. (The DA was the same Ronnie Earle going after Tom Delay today.)

CHL holders in most states have lower murder & arrest rates than sworn LEOs in some major cities. (Didn't NOLA have two cops on murder charges at the same time for unrelated killings a few years ago?) Would that be justification for disarming all cops?

Take a large enough sample of people, and you WILL find a bad guy.

Eventually.

 

[Maxwell]

On an unrelated note:

Today I had to reinstall windows XP on a pc at my moms office.
As you'd guess, the code they wrote on its "official dell" label would not validate with the software. Leaving me stuck in a rutt.

Its not an unsuaul problem for me. I ponder a moment wheather I should get my key generator and crack it ilegally... or attempt to phone microsoft and do things the right way.
Its a government pc, so I finally convince myself its worth the effort.

Planning this as an experiment in futility, I gather all the paperwork then call in to their help line and wade through a halfhour of automated nonsense
Two minutes after reaching a human in some forign call center/sweatshop, they give me a new code didnt even ask who I was or why I needed it.

At this point I feel like an idiot.
I could have been done long ago without help, and what they made me wait for seemed fairly pointless so far as catching unauthorized users.

So far as this might or might not relate to firearms:
1) "The proper authorities" are never willing to spend resources to tell who is a rightful applicant from who is not.

2) Whittle the pool of owners down to the select few who you think can be trusted, and you increase the will for others to break the law.

3) Jumping through hoops? It usualy sucks.

A more relaxed distribution system would have saved microsoft alot more money and earned more customers than their wonky copy protection has.
Maybe government can learn from that.

 

[RealGun]

I had trouble with the factual basis of the report. Aside from wondering what .45 carries 8 rounds, let alone more, or who has hands big enough for a double stack, I had to wonder how a State would grant a license to someone who did not have a license in his home state. I have never heard of such a thing.

Based on the story as given, the guy sounds guilty as hell...maybe not of murder, but let's call it overkill, sounding more like anger and aggression than self defense.

 

[Jeff White]

The Real Hawkeye said;

You have set yourself up a nice straw man, and knocked it down by digging up some case of a CCW license holder being CHARGED with murder.

No I didn't dig this story up. I happened across it in todays online edition of the St Louis Post Dispatch. Next someone will accuse me of framing Stevens just to make my point ......

My argument isn't a strawman. Anyone can be a threat to a police officer when he's taking enforcement action.

Jeff, again, you are merely recasting things people have said in absolutist terms. No one said what you relate here. You are using strawman arguments, rigged to make you the winner by default.

Nothing's recasted. Here is the exact quote from the thread:

Origninally posted by Joe7cri:
Hey Jeff, step out from behind that tin badge and enter the real world. You are far less likely to be assaulted by a CCW holder, than any other citizen. We don't go through all that paperwork to carry legally just so we can get our permit revoked for something stupid.

Cosmoline said;

Exactly. And if you conclude there must have been murder because the local DA makes that charge, I have a bridge to the Ketchikan airport I can sell you up here for cheap.

Do they routinely charge first degree murder in clear cut self defense cases in Alaska? Around here mutual combat and questionable self defense usually draw murder 2 or manslaughter charges.

Ohen Chapel said,

It's a statistical probability. Sooner or later it will happen. The fact that it happens so rarely that it's news should be the news issue here.

Seems I seen some cops post these same words before. Didn't ever seem to change the tone of the thread.

Sounds like he was attacked on his way to the store to me.

There was a lot of resistance in St. Louis to shall issue. I'd guess this prosecutor had dogs in that fight and got tired of waiting to prove himself right. The permit holder is charged with first degree murder as incentive to plea bargain lower. That is generally how the system works.

You don't think the fact they arrested him at his home later that evening might have had something to do with the charges?

You're going to have to wait for the jury on this one Jeff. Good try though

I wait for the jury on all of them. Homeowner. CCW holder, police officer. Do I detect a hint of defensivness in some of the posts? Are you guys banding together into the Brotherhood of the CCW Super Citizen?

Hawkmoon said;

Jeff, as a LEO you should know that being accused does not mean being guilty. You certainly chose an inflammatory way to introduce the story: You wrote, "Some of you guys want to tell me again that a CCW holder would never do such a thing ..." without even identifying what the "thing" is.

Of course I chose an somewhat inflammatory way to introduce the story. I wanted certain members to have to walk in a police officer's shoes on THR. I can tell by the respones so far that it worked. Feel a little singled out in the rush to judgement? Like getting painted with the tar that police officers get painted with? Of course not. Nobody does. But the difference is I bear CCW holders no malice. I support CCW. I even wish I didn't have a story like this to make my point with. It's probably set Illinois back at least a couiple years.

cropcirclewalker said;

Mr. White I suspected it to be something like that. You are too smart to give up the moral high ground. And where would Mr. Eatman be? having to pull the plug on a ccw bashing thread.

I don't know where Art is. Could be he's out building roads on Terlingua Creek. It stays light later in the evening now.

Even though nearly everybody I forumulate with agrees that the guy must have been an idiot to leave the scene, not call the cops and at least not police his brass, nobody yet has chosen to make this appear to be an "Us vs Them" thing.

Then why is almost always an "Us vs Them thing" when someone posts an article about a police shooting? I do think he would have been in trouble if he policed his brass before he left the scene. Tampering with evidence is not taken lightly.

Most of us are probably right. He must have been an idiot. Just because there is such sketchy information, there is no reason for us not to jump to conclusions.

Which proves my point about there might be a time when a CCW holder could be a danger to a police officer.

That said, everyone in the RKBA movement needs to be very concerned about this case. I predict they will make a big deal about the fact Stevens got his permit through the mail. I wouldn't doubt that there will be federal legislation introduced to prohibit mail order permits. And the so called conservatives in congress will most likely vote for it.

Jeff

 

[Joe7cri]

Video of a San Bernardino Sheriff's Deputy shooting an unarmed man who appears to be complying with orders.
February 2, 2006 7:15 PM PST

Video of an unarmed man being shot by a San Bernardino Sheriff's Deputy while appearing to comply with orders.

Senior Airman Elio Carrion, 21, had been riding as a passenger in a Corvette that was involved in a brief, high-speed chase with the deputy that reached speeds of 100 mph before the Corvette crashed into a fence, authorities said. The videotape, shot by Chino resident Jose Luis Valdes, shows Carrion sprawled on the ground and repeatedly telling the deputy, "I'm on your side." The deputy then seems to shout, "Get up!" after which Carrion appears to lean forward. "I'm going to get up, all right?" he says. The deputy then fires his gun three or four times from about five feet away. "Shut … up, you don't get up …!" he shouts. Moaning in pain, Carrion responds: "You told me to get up." The deputy then radioed in to dispatch that shots had been fired.

Hey Jeff I guess we'll all be safe as long as only police offers are armed. OH guess NOT!

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Hey Jeff I guess we'll all be safe as long as only police offers are armed. OH guess NOT!

Sounds like a clear case of premeditated murder to me. Just imagine how often that happens when there is no video camera recording the policeman's conduct.

 

[JohnBT]

"Anyone can be a threat to a police officer when he's taking enforcement action."

Now you're belaboring the obvious. What's next, a request to disarm all citizens, all the time, instead of just during traffic stops? The guy in the article wasn't even driving as far as we know.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I'm tired of 'disarm 'em first and sort it out later'.

John

 

[AndyC]

Personally, I'm just interested in hearing what actually happened - then I'll make up my own mind.

 

[Eleven Mike]

Aside from wondering what .45 carries 8 rounds, let alone more, or who has hands big enough for a double stack, I had to wonder how a State would grant a license to someone who did not have a license in his home state. I have never heard of such a thing.

Any 1911 carries 8 rounds, and a lot of them use 8-round magazines, bringing the total to nine. With the second comment, you must be under the impression that no one would carry a gun unless it fit his hands. Not so.

Florida is the state you are asking about. Living in Saint Louis County, which only recently began issuing the permits, I can tell you that some still prefer to get the Florida permit as it is cheaper, and has no training requirement, or so I am told.

 

[Jeff White]

The Real Hawkeye said;

Sounds like a clear case of premeditated murder to me. Just imagine how often that happens when there is no video camera recording the policeman's conduct.

I believe there were several comments just like that in more then one closed thread on that story. Once again you make my point. You are perfectly capable of dishing it out, but you can't take even a little ribbing when it's aimed at a super citizen

Let me tell you guys something, you had better get used to it. As CCW spreads across the country and becomes more prevalent and easier to get the number of incidents like this one will only increase. That's not a dig either, it's a mathematical certainty. The bigger any population gets the greater chance someone who doesn't share your good sense and intelligence will screw up and make you all look bad.

Any of you doubt that there won't be repercussions over this? I predict there will be editorials in the St Louis and Kansas City papers calling for the heads of the republican legislators who passed CCW by the end of the week.

The Brady Campaign is probably already rolling gleefully in the blood.

Jeff

 

[VARifleman]

All around now, from the Kobe case a year ago, to the Duke case today, to this, people are too quick to make up their minds. WAIT UNTIL MORE COMES IN PEOPLE! There's a reason it's innocent until proven guilty. Don't you forget that.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Yo, Mr. White, I know you must be an honorable man.

Then I think of what it must have been like to be a guillotine driver back in the old days of the French revolution.

Fast forward to today. So, here is this guy, Mr. Jeff White. a leo in the PRIL. Not a bastion of RTKABA. A leo in one of the most repressive RTKABA states in what's left of what is still called the good ol" US of A.

Right off the bat, I as the guillotine driver, would ask myself, "why the heck hasn't he moved out of the PRIL?"

Hard to 'splain.

Then he logs on to suggest that us'ns (we lowly CCW approved citizens) should perhaps be watched closely because one of us, yes, one of us, of (I would say zillions, but I have no valid numbers) lots and lots of law abiding citizens gets charged with Murder 1, that justifies the oppression of the rest of us.

Sombody posted above that the citizenry, as a whole, is much more likely to do a crime than us CCW permit holders. The stastistics even suggest that us CCW licensed holders are even less likely than leos themselves to be criminals.

So there you have it.

Unless you are really a stealth, gungrabber on a progun site and are pretending to be on our side;

Why the heck don't you move to a free state?

 

[Art Eatman]

CCW, after reading through all this, I gotta give you credit: That's about the most spin and twist in one post that I've seen in a long, long time.

It seems to me that overall, low probability does not mean something can't happen. (Florida Lottery: Odds are about 14 million to one, for a single ticket.)

Even a CHL Good Guy can over-react to stress. A good cop who knows what he's doing watches *everybody* closely. Period. It's a survival thing. Call it "Condition Yellow +".

AS far as the subject of this thread, though, we don't know enough about what actually happened, beyond the fact that the shooter left the scene and we're generally in accord that he was thereby foolish.

So stay with the thread's subject.

Art

 

[Jeff White]

cropcirclewalker said;

Yo, Mr. White, I know you must be an honorable man.

Thank you, but don't say that too loud you'll spoil my image as a jack booted thug .

Fast forward to today. So, here is this guy, Mr. Jeff White. a leo in the PRIL. Not a bastion of RTKABA. A leo in one of the most repressive RTKABA states in what's left of what is still called the good ol" US of A.

OK I have to pay $5.00 for a FOID card every five years. But unlike many other states, once I have that, I can have any legal semi-automatic. And I can have as many 250 round drums as I care too, if that's what I want. I can't have class III but Illinois is far from the only state that bans that. As long as I saty out of the Peoples Socialist Republics of Cook, Will and McHenry Counties I don't have to worry about any other firearm restrictions. We have no CCW but we're working on it.

But unlike where you live I don't have to ask the county sheriff for permission each and every time I wish to purchase a handgun. Yet no one considers Missouri the least bit anti gun. Michigan has handgun registration disguised as an inspection law, but no one considers them anti gun. Don't think for one minute if the home rule laws in Missouri permitted it that St Louis and Kansas City wouldn't be every bit as anti gun as Chicago. I'm not as free as most but more free then a great many citizens of this country. That's another thing that bothers me about THR. Dayley make you guys think it's that way state wide, it's not. But it doesn't matter how many times us Illinois members point that out the myth persists. Try living in New York, Maryland, Massachusettes, Conneticut, California, New Jersey...Illinois is a veritable shooters paradise compared to those places. Yet we're alway the most anti RKBA state in the union....

Then he logs on to suggest that us'ns (we lowly CCW approved citizens) should perhaps be watched closely because one of us, yes, one of us, of (I would say zillions, but I have no valid numbers) lots and lots of law abiding citizens gets charged with Murder 1, that justifies the oppression of the rest of us.

First off I doubt there are a million CCW holders nationwide. And I've read many a study that showed that a great number of people who have them don't often carry, and that a good percentage of first time CCW holders don't bother to renew. So I would guess the number of CCW holders out there who carry daily is fairly small.

Sombody posted above that the citizenry, as a whole, is much more likely to do a crime than us CCW permit holders. The stastistics even suggest that us CCW licensed holders are even less likely than leos themselves to be criminals.

And never once have I disputed that. However your side seems to be unable to accept that people frequently lose it when faced with (here) a $75.00 traffic fine. I can post examples of people from all walks of life, in fact in the other thread I posted an example of a state supreme court justice.

Yet the other side wants me to automatically trust anyone who would present a CCW permit to me, not to lose it when faced with a traffic citation, just because he's a CCW holder.

Let me explain my working conditions. I work alone in a rural area. Besides the small town that I'm currently employed with I handle many calls for the sheriffs dept in the Northeast corner of the county, simply because I am usually closest if something goes down. I also handle calls on the interstate to assist the state police when the closest trooper is 20 or more miles away.

Backup is around 10 minutes away if someone is close up to 30 minutes away if they aren't. I don't deal with CCW holders, but I do deal with people with firearms in their vehicles all the time. Everyone drives pickups and SUVs around here and from the start of dove season until the end of the second turkey season 7 out of 10 pickups an officer encounters around here have shotguns in them. What I currently do is if I stop someone I don't know and they've got one or more firearms in the cab, I ask them to sit in my car with me while I write a warning or citation. There is no way I can watch that person while I'm writing. No one has ever considered that a violation of their rights. I know some state troppers who conduct all their stops that way.

I know that there are many here, Hawkeye this is your que who will say that no one complains because the oppressive Illinois Jack Booted Thugs have broken all the free men and made them serfs....But I don't think so. I think most of them have some appreciation of what it would be like to do my job.

I suppose if I'm still working when we get CCW and a CCW holder sets off the spider sense, I can just have him remove his weapon and place it on the seat next to him and then come sit in my car with me. That way he wouldn't have to fear that a certified firearms instructor would have an ND and shoot himself in the head and leave the poor hapless guy facing a murder rap.

Unless you are really a stealth, gungrabber on a progun site and are pretending to be on our side;

Well no not really. I'd just really like to be around to watch my grandkids grow up.

Why the heck don't you move to a free state?

I consider it every time they get close to passing one of their assault weapons bans. And if they ever do pass one, even though every version ultimately ends up exempting police and retired police, I will move. I won't live in a place where I can enjoy shooting that my neighbors and frinds can't.

But for now, I'm pretty heavily invested in real eastate and both my whif and I have most of our family in the state. So for now, I'll stay and fight. If you don't believe that I'm committed you might ask kingcreek about how i tried to pin down Richard Pearson, Executive Director of the ISRA on the issue of eliminating the FOID card. There is a provision in the original 1970 legislation that allows the retention of the FOID law to be put on the ballot for referendum of the people. The Illinois Constitution doesn't permit much direct action by the public. We don't get referendums on the ballot like you all on the West side of the Mississippi do. It was at lobby day at the state capitol 2 or 3 years ago. Kingcreek was standing there with me when the conversatiopn happened. Besides that, I'm the republican precinct comitteeman for the precinct I live in. I fight for RKBA more often then many.

Jeff

 

[Warren]

I think it is fairly ridiculous to insinuate, imply,or explicitly state that Jeff White is a pro-control troll.

To do so just wrecks any cred you might have in the arguement.


A CCW holder shot someone and left the scene and was arrested....that is about all we know. He posted the article to make a valid point and this is supposed to imply that JW is coming out against CCW or 2A rights in general?

I think this is some bitterness seeping in from other debates on other threads.


And no I am not some pro-police suck-up, I just don't like to see someone unfairly malinged. Especially since it takes a willful misinterpeting of the reason for the original post.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Try living in New York, Maryland, Massachusettes, Conneticut, California, New Jersey...Illinois is a veritable shooters paradise compared to those places. Yet we're alway the most anti RKBA state in the union...

I'm in California and I would gladly trade IL's laws for CA's. The only advantage that CA has is that it has may-issue permits, but very few have made it in major urban counties.

I would love to have no AWB, standard-capacity mags, etc.

I think IL gets its rap because it is one of only two non-CCW states left. But in reality, HI and NJ are non-issue states also. There are exactly the same number of CCW permits issued by IL and HI.

 

[RealGun]

Any 1911 carries 8 rounds,

Duh! I forgot that mine holds 7+1. Haven't had it out in awhile. My extended range clips hold 10 (+1). I believe the shorter grip clips hold less than 7, yes?.

Now I am wondering how many actually carry a full sized 1911 concealed or even a shorter one with a full sized grip and clip. Seems like a serious bad dude, certainly the manly man. That's a whole lotta gun to hide. I carry a 4" .40S&W and think that's a load as it is, but I guess it's in the ballpark as also 7+1 single stack. It's lighter and less bulky though, but a "real gun". It still has a long grip, and there's the problem for concealment. Double stack doesn't work for me.

I think it is significant that this guy emptied his gun, another indication of anger and aggression it seems.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Laying aside the dubious dynamics of this thread...{duh: CCW holders are statistically less likely to be involved in violent crime, but there will always be a few....}

I find it more interesting to analyse the report itself


Lines of text dedicated to the circumstances of the _crime_: 12

Lines of text dedicated to the circumstances of the _ccw_: 15.


Lots of details on the permit, little detail on the crime itself.

Hmph.

 

[joab]

charged don't mean convicted and 14 holes don't mean murder or premeditation.
How many holes did Diallo have in him in that justified shooting ?

 

[Sistema1927]

From the article:

It's the first case I've heard about here in St. Louis where a person accused of a violent crime has had a concealed-carry permit,"

Last I checked, there was plenty of violent crime in St. Louis. The only reason that this made the news is because it is a real oddity that a CCW holder is involved. This is the exception that proves the rule.

 

[K-Romulus]

Aside from wondering what .45 carries 8 rounds

According to the ad in American Rifleman, the Springfield XD-45 holds 14 rounds of .45ACP

 

[Aguila Blanca]

No, I'm not starting a CCW bashing thread. In other threads when members complaned that it was a violation of their rights and I pointed out that anyone doctor, lawyer, teacher, nurse, truck driver, supreme court justice...was capable of reacting badly even violently to a routine encounter with a police officer.

But this doesn't prove your point, Jeff. In fact, it doesn't even relate to your argument. The alleged victim in this incident was NOT a police officer, and the incident did not involve a routine encounter with a police officer.

Plus we do not know that the alleged victim didn't assault the shooter.

All this shows, Jeff, is that you have been taken to the woodshed because you support violating the constitutional rights of citizens, and you are grasping at straws to support your position.

As to your insinuation that he must be guilty of murder because he left the scene ... Ayoob wrote up a case a few months ago about a guy with a RI CCW who was (IIRC) helping someone move into (or out of) an apartment across the line in MA. The guy forgot he was going to MA so he had his gun even though it wasn't legal. Murphy's law being operative at all times, he was assaulted, and used the gun to defend himself. He thereupon fled the scene -- disassembling the gun and discarding the pieces as he went. He was subsequently traced, arrested, and convicted. I don't recall if he was convicted of murder or manslaughter, but Ayoob's point was that even though he wasn't legal in MA, he would have been in less trouble if he hadn't fled.

But ... regardless of the technicalities of what he was charged with and what he was convicted of, it was a righteous shoot, and the guy ended up doing prison time ONLY because (a) he didn't have a MA permit, and (b) because he panicked and fled rather than wait for the police.

This case you have raised to prove your point could be the same thing.

 

[psychophipps]

Besides, it's very common for a suspicious shooting to initially be called a murder. In fact, that's par for the course in the US. They will do a full forensic study and take the witness statements and go from there, just like any other crime scene.
As for first-degree? I don't think that it will stick unless they can prove that the shooter was on his way to directly shoot the victim. As they had an altercation, which is not described in the text given, that pretty much removes the first-degree charge unless the shooter shoved his gun in the victim's face and started the altercation that way which sounds doubtful at this time. If it was known that the shooter walked up with his weapon out, shoved it in the victim's face and started firing after they argued, why isn't that in the paper already? Some random would definitely spouting that fact to a reporter by the time this was writen and printed.
The DA has potentially screwed the pooch, big-time. If this case can even remotely be attributed as a "bumped-into-and-shoot" then the whole case will be tossed out as it doesn't show a direct premeditation on the part of the shooter. Saying that the shooter knew he might run into the victim so he was armed doesn't show murder, it shows common sense.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[buzz_knox]

Put me down as one who thinks this thread was started for a dubious purpose, and that it's backfired.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just someone who came from an area where no CCW holder has committed a murder, but a cop has. And I've never seen a CCW holder even threaten to kill someone, while a cop (in my presence) has done exactly that and not in the line of duty.