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CCW Permit Holder Comes to the Aid of a Store Manager

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by woolfam, Sep 3, 2009.

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  1. woolfam

    woolfam Member

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    http://www.kmbc.com/news/20677451/detail.html

    Bystander Not Charged In Shoplifter Shooting
    Loucinda Carroll Accused Of Stealing Meat From Independence Grocery Store


    INDEPENDENCE, Mo. -- The man who shot a suspected shoplifter in Independence won't face any charges, prosecutors said Wednesday.

    Loucinda Carroll, 41, was arrested Saturday evening after a bystander shot her in the parking lot of an Independence grocery store.

    Prosecutors said Carroll and a friend went to the Sunfresh store at 23rd Street and Sterling Avenue to steal meat. The manager saw it happening and followed them to a car in the parking lot, police said.

    The manager tried writing down the license plate and yelled at them to stop and for someone to call police.

    With the car turned on, police said Carroll lunged the vehicle forward, striking the manager on the legs, leaving her clinging to the hood of the car.

    William Miller was in the parking lot and saw it happen. He used his truck to block an exit and pulled out his handgun, repeatedly telling the driver to stop and get out, police said.

    Police said Miller feared for his life and for the manager, and he fired a shot into the driver-side window. It hit Carroll in the shoulder and neck.

    Carroll's son, Michael Barajas, said it wasn't right.

    "He didn't even know what was going on. He just jumped out assuming. What if it had been the lady on the hood that was in the wrong? He would have shot the wrong lady," Barajas told KMBC's Marcus Moore. "He's not a police officer--he should have never done that."

    Barajas admitted that his mother "put herself in a bad position."

    He said he's thankful she's going to survive the gunshot wound, and he said he wishes she hadn't done what she's accused of.

    "My mom should not have been stealing. However, I think this guy is very wrong for shooting her. His life was not in danger," Barajas said.

    Miller has a valid concealed carry license from the state of Utah, which Missouri honors. Miller didn't want to comment on the incident.

    The store manager also didn't want to talk.

    The incident remains under investigation.

    Jackson County Prosecutor Jim Kanatzer said there won't be any charges filed against Miller.

    "You are entitled to defend yourself or someone else if you think that your life is in danger or that you are in danger of serious physical injury," Kanatzer told KMBC's Jim Flink. "You have to reasonably believe that either you or another individual is in danger of losing their life. This particular individual had all the reason to believe that based upon the facts he was observing."

    Kanatzer said the law allows for reasonable self-defense if anyone's life is in danger. However, he urges caution.

    Carroll will face theft charges when she is discharged from the hospital.
     
  2. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Score one for the good guys!
     
  3. P95loser

    P95loser Member

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    What strikes me most about this is both the manager and the shooter made no comment on the matter. Perhaps this is the best course of action in today's times to avoid the negative press.
     
  4. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    "You shot my momma! OK, she shouldn't have been stealing, she shouldn't have been doing all those things, but you shoudn't have shot her!"
    Egad. Well done to the Good Sam, who will have nightmares for years. The attacker should also be facing ADW charges with the use of a vehicle as a weapon.
     
  5. kda

    kda Member

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    I agree. If I find myself in a situation where I feel I must act, the last thing I want is to be quoted in the press.
     
  6. Leanwolf

    Leanwolf Member

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    You ain't kiddin'!!!

    The last thing you want to do if you are involved a a self defense shooting is to go blabbing about it to the teeeveee cameras and pap dispensers.

    "Hey, look, Buford, I'm on teeeveee!"

    The two "good guys" did exactly the right thing. They kept their mouths shut when the pap dispensers came around.

    L.W.
     
  7. THE DARK KNIGHT

    THE DARK KNIGHT Member

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    What kind of idiot runs into the parking lot after a shoplifter? The store manager stands to lose nothing at all if someone steals some meat. The company won't miss it. In fact he might be in trouble at his job because many retail stores and other establishments have a "No chase" policy etc.

    And the CCWer? Ok, so someone is stealing meat from the supermarket and they bust into action mode? Pulling a gun out over $4.95? This person should have their permit revoked. If them and the manager did not run out after the shoplifter (who did nothing to them) everyone would be safe and sound today.

    CCW is about saving yourself, family, or others from danger, not protecting some meat from the supermarket.

    "You are entitled to defend yourself or someone else if you think that your life is in danger or that you are in danger of serious physical injury," Kanatzer told KMBC's Jim Flink. "You have to reasonably believe that either you or another individual is in danger of losing their life. This particular individual had all the reason to believe that based upon the facts he was observing."
     
  8. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    This is from the orginal story:

    Clearly, the perp was using deadly force against the manager (yes, Virginia, people can be killed by being run over by a car.) The manager clinging to the hood was in danger of death.

    And the prosecutor agrees that the CCW holder was justified in acting to save the manager's life.
     
  9. THE DARK KNIGHT

    THE DARK KNIGHT Member

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    And why did the person try to run the manager over? Cause GI Joe went running outside after, I can almost guarantee, less than $10 worth of meat that doesn't even belong to him. CCW is not about being a hero, looking for gunfights, if you can stay out a situation, stay out of it. Why put yourself in danger over a chase?

    The manager is lucky all that person had was a car. What if the unarmed genius ran outside after the meat, and someone in the getaway car started shooting at them? What if he came running out and the shoplifter turned around and had a weapon on them?

    The shooter, and manager, behaved recklessly in persuing a situation that neither of them had any business persuing. Let the dirtbag get away with $5 in meat, call the cops, fill out a statement, go on with life.
     
  10. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Note the example of the NYC cops who riddled the guy leaving the bachelor party. He didn't even hit anybody with his vehicle, as I recall. Actually HITTING somebody is certainly no LESS deadly force. In most places, you're allowed to defend another who'd be allowed to defend themselves. That's exactly what the good samaritan did.

    If you don't want to get shot, don't INTENTIONALLY hit somebody with your car while in the commission of another crime.

    I've NEVER hit a pedestrian while I was in the act of stealing meat. Yeah, I know, I'm out of the mainstream...
     
  11. subman47

    subman47 Member

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    +1 for vern
     
  12. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    How is that relevant? Surely you're not saying the perpetrator was justified in trying to run the manager over!!

    The CCW holder saw an attempted murder -- when the perp struck the manager with the car. He saw a person (the manager) whose life was at risk due to the actions of the perp. He acted appropriately to save the manager's life.

    And the prosecutor agrees.
     
  13. THE DARK KNIGHT

    THE DARK KNIGHT Member

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    Yeah, I'm totally justifying someone running someone else over. Yep.

    What I'm saying is the manager and shooter behaved recklessly by getting themself into a deadly situation over a person who was stealing a few dollars worth of meat, posed no threat to either of them until they got to the car, and would have done no physical, monetary or emotional damage at all to either of them had they just let the dirtbag scram with the meat.

    The shooter is justified for saving the manager from serious injury, but the manager behaved recklessly to put themselves in that situation at all. And the manager is lucky all that person had for a weapon was the car.

    Answer me this.

    Why did the manager chase after a person who was simply shoplifting some meat?
     
  14. kdstrick

    kdstrick Member

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    Hey Darkknight, it isn't about the stolen meat. It is about a felony in progress and a good Sam trying to save the life of a the manager.

    Now, I'll agree with you that it is a bad idea to pursue a thief, and the manager made a poor decision to do so. I'll bet that she won't do that again.

    Given that, the thief made a poor decision to first steal, then to attempt to run over the manager (which makes this a felony), it put the good Sam in a position to either allow the possible death or serious harm to the manager, or to act, and stop the felony in progress.

    You may think the CCW holder was wrong, but what if the manager was your wife, mother, sister, etc... I bet you would feel differently. :)
     
  15. THE DARK KNIGHT

    THE DARK KNIGHT Member

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    The CCW holder was justified in saving the manager. But the manager acted foolishly by chasing a shoplifter over a few bucks of meat that didn't even belong to them.

    That's like sure, the fire department is great for pulling me out the 3rd story window of a burning building, but wouldn't you think I was stupid if I had ran into the burning building and up to the 3rd floor when I was already safe on the ground?
     
  16. kdstrick

    kdstrick Member

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    Probably because the manager has pride in her job and took the theft as a personal affront. She wanted justice. It sounds like she was trying to write down the license plate number when she got struck by the perps car.
     
  17. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    The Dark Knight said:
    (My emphasis)

    And then The Dark Knight said:

    (Again my emphasis)

    Anyone else see the contradiction here?
     
  18. indiandave

    indiandave Member

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    Sad, but I bet the CCW guy and the store manager are both in for lawsuits. In these times doing the right thing can bankrupt you.
     
  19. THE DARK KNIGHT

    THE DARK KNIGHT Member

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    I will admit that my first post was incorrect, I misread the article and thought the CCWer went into the parking lot to help the store manager chase the shoplifter. I now see that the CCWer was in the lot and witnessed the event, so I don't think they should have their permit revoked and they are justified in shooting.

    But the manager is still a complete fool. I'd love to know how much the meat was worth, and which multi-million dollar corporation he so foolishly chased the shoplifter for.
     
  20. longdayjake

    longdayjake Member

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    This illustrates the fundamental difference between good people and dumb people. Good people try to make the world better. Dumb people just let others do whatever they want and hope that the government or the rich guy takes care of the problem.

    In the real world when you let people get away with crime it only makes crime worse. No matter who the crime is committed against, it harms society as a whole to do nothing about it.

    I lived in Brazil for 2 years and I saw how the people were afraid to do anything about crime. It starts with stealing but the more that criminals get away with something the bolder they get. Eventually they control the people with fear because they aren't afraid to murder because they know that no one will say anything out of fear of being murdered.

    Though it is very dumb to stand in front of an escaping criminal in a car, (cars always win the pedestrian vs car battle) it is not dumb to try and stop a crime. Taking the license plate down was a good idea and telling them to stop and asking others to call the police is a good idea.

    The Dark Knight,
    Doing nothing at all is dumb and it makes me want to discredit anything that you say. Not only that but it kind of goes against what your name stands for.
     
  21. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    Really? And why is that? He did nothing wrong. He has nothing to feel guilty about and the scumbag thief got off with little more than a shoulder wound.

    Please - explain why this man will have nightmares for life?
     
  22. danbrew

    danbrew member

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    Yet the CCW guy did not know the circumstances at hand. It's super easy for us to read between the lines about what the CCW guy did or did not know. The CCW guy saw some lady in the parking lot get run over and cling to the roof of the car. How did he know this person was "a good guy (gal)"? He didn't. While most of us would agree that the guy getting run over is probably the good guy, I can think of a few reasons where he would be the bad guy.

    The CCW guy isn't being charged because he's lucky. He's lucky that he was right and he's lucky the prosecutor has declined to file charges. He'll be lucky if the shoplifter doesn't sue.

    As others have said (in this thread and in prior threads), my gun is staying safe unless it's me or mine at risk. Or I witness what I believe to be an imminent execution. That's it.
     
  23. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    He didn't have to. The issue is not the shoplifting. The issue is the perp's attempt to kill the manager by running over her.

    The CCW holder could see the manager was not a threat to the perp. He saw the perp attempt to run her down. He saw her driving off with the injured manager clinging to the hood.

    If the roles had been reversed -- if the manger had run down the perp and driven off with her clinging to the hood -- it would make no difference.
     
  24. middy

    middy Member

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    Anyone in the position of the driver is the bad guy, no matter how it started, unless the person clinging to the hood is pointing a gun at them.
     
  25. rainbowbob

    rainbowbob Member

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    I was put in a similar situation when two scruffy-looking dudes broke out in a fight right in front of me as I was walking through the Home Depot parking lot.

    I had no idea who was doing what to whom or why.

    When one of them broke away, got into his car, and put it in reverse - I realized I was inadvertently standing in his path and nearly got hit by his rear bumper. :eek:

    I contend that jumping out of the way proved to be a better response than shooting him.

    My weapon did NOT make an appearance.

    As it turned out, the one left behind was a Home Depot employee (under-cover "loss prevention"). He said the other guy had stolen something.

    I tried to contact the manager the next day to question their policy of employing an unidentified person to initiate what could have turned out to a deadly encounter in a parking lot full of customers in the name of "loss prevention".

    I never got a reply.

    I would have been pissed purple if I'd been injured and/or forced to injure another person over a box of wing-nuts.

    I realize theft is a huge problem for business owners. They need to come up with solutions that DON'T include putting innocent customers and employees in harm's way.
     
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