CCW policy at range

[litman252]

In Wisconsin we finnaly have CCW. The new question is what to do at a range. From the ranges perspective, what makes sense for policy? We want people to practice drawing and shooting. We also want to minimize the possible oops.
Shoulder holster?
Ankel and cross draw?

How do you want the general public to train next to you? ???????

We are a small members only, no RO, 24/7 range

Thanks for any thoughts

Tony

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

Everyone needs to be able to practice w/ what they carry. Perhaps a policy of requiring an hour of dry fire practice off the ange before any live fire is allowed when practicing CCW.

 

[Strykervet]

I belong to a larger club that has been around since 1949, it has an RO for events, Fridays and weekends. They have an 8 round mag limit (because of Garands!?) and because they've had a few rifles go auto and with a 30rd. mag in the hands of a new guy, or anyone for that matter, that can be bad. So no full mags. No rapid fire either, but I was told due to my background (SDM instructor) and some of the rifle shooting they saw me do, that they'd bend the rules a little for me on it. The range officers in charge of each area can "check out" a shooter to see if they are safe for whatever. This was nice. They also don't allow holster draws on the firing lines on the pistol or rifle range, but they have "IPSC Bays" that are just three sided enbankments adjacent to the rifle range. You have to be checked out to use these bays, and then you can rapid fire there AND do holster draws, but they have to be from the hip and there has to be another person certified for those bays with you to draw. They don't want someone shooting their leg and being stuck out there by themselves bleeding. See, our range is 365days 7am to 10pm and though it has one groundskeeper and officer actually living on site, there isn't a gurantee you can get help or will be heard or found.

So whatever you do, safety first. You need rules, not stupid rules, but just well thought out ones and I suppose some need to be flexible based on skill for some, training for events, etc. But personally, I would want the holster draws done in those bays we have than on the firing line. That way they have to be checked out, and they aren't doing it around others. Shoulder holsters, I don't know, I guess it depends on the range. On ours, in the bays, you'd have the barrel pointed at the rifle firing line when holstered and facing the targets. I guess ankle draws would be okay? But having those three sided bays is real nice for drawing and rapid fire on a range used by other people, and having them checked out by a range officer is nice too so they know the particular rules for the bays and are in fact safe enough to use them.

Thing is you can go years doing it on the firing line and not have a problem. You may not even have an oopsie moment. But then that one day someone can make a mistake or their weapon is unsafe and someone gets hurt or killed. That one day makes it all not worth it. Those bays are the way to go. Just earth ramparts on either side and in the back, about a 25 or 50 meter square, whatever you want. Make a few small ones, they'll be popular.

Since everyone uses a different holster and has different ways and different weapons and different skill levels, etc., you can't really treat drawing and live fire practice the same way as say the military or police might. Especially with no RO.

Then again, it is difficult to say without seeing your range and clientele. If you are out there in the great wide open prairie, you may be able to get away with more, just be safe first and foremost. Nobody wants to get shot at the range, and our range went through great pains to make it as safe as possible, including red ceasefire lights when someone is downrange (you can't always see them, and nobody wants to get caught downrange changing targets when the range goes live!) and of course the rules.

Explaining the rules helps too so they don't think you are just sitting back and making up a bunch of junk like God. They'll be more apt to follow them on their own if they understand it is for the better good.

 

[Bobson]

Thing is you can go years doing it on the firing line and not have a problem. You may not even have an oopsie moment. But then that one day someone can make a mistake or their weapon is unsafe and someone gets hurt or killed. That one day makes it all not worth it. Those bays are the way to go. Just earth ramparts on either side and in the back, about a 25 or 50 meter square, whatever you want. Make a few small ones, they'll be popular.

Great idea. I don't think this would be a mistake. Like Kevin said, it's important to practice the way you carry, and people will find a way/place to do that. The goal ought to be finding a safe way for your members to practice their draw techniques at your range. IMO, Strykervet just found it.

 

[Rail Driver]

Shoulder holsters are bad in a range "line" situation because during the draw, you sweep anyone behind and to your left (or right if you're a lefty). Small of the back holsters present a similar problem with the addition of potentially sweeping yourself.

 

[coolluke01]

During steel action matches or any match for that matter, formal or informal, my range does not allow CC. They ask members to remove and store their CCW. It's a safety issue to have loaded weapons behind the firing line.
I don't believe that you must practice holster draws with a loaded weapon and have a live fire drill. It can't hurt to train safely that way but holster practice should be done unloaded for the most part.
The barriers are a good idea too. But holster draw is not just a safety concern to the bystanders, but as was mentioned, the shooter as well.

 

[litman252]

Thanks for the replies, I forgot to say we are indoor only.

Tony

 

[ColdDeadHand]

What makes sense for lawsuits: No drawing from holsters.

If you come in with a loaded weapon, it better be concealed in a holster and stay there.

Unfortunately in this country, nowadays, anything less will likely get you sued out of business sooner or later.

Sucks but true.

 

[drsfmd]

I belong to 10 or so clubs, and there is a common theme amongst them... no drawing from holsters (except for recognized events like IPSC), and no concealed carry on the property.

 

[Sam1911]

Concealed carry guns you aren't shooting stay in the holster.

However, carrying a gun that you have not practiced drawing, presenting, retaining, and firing is ... well... kinda dumb. Some portion of the range needs to be devoted to helping people develop this skill and the safety practices that go with it.

We use the same IDPA/USPSA type rules for all defensive drills and practice. Usually, one shooter on the line at a time. One SO with the shooter. Guns are "cold" until the shooter is on the line and the SO instructs "load and make ready." Guns are verified clear, then dry-fired and re-holstered before leaving the line.

(Once shooters are known and well-practied, we do run simple draw-and-fire drills with 2-4 shooters on the line at once.)

Shoulder holsters, cross-draw, and SOBs are not welcome in competition, or most practice sessions, as they present unacceptable dangers to the shooter, SO, and those observing or waiting to shoot. If there is some reason those holsters need to be used, a 360-degree bay/berm needs to be provided so that the shooter may not "flag" anyone when drawing or holstering. There is still a grave danger of the shooter muzzle-sweeping him/herself, but that can be avoided by extensively drilling very best practices.

 

[iLikeOldgunsIlikeNewGuns]

The range I'm a member with has two separate ranges, both indoors; one for members and one for the general public with a RO in both. They allow practicing from holster draw, and I'm grateful for that. I practice every time I visit, and I've seen many others doing the same. The golden rules for holster-draw-firing are, do not do so any faster than you can safely control the firearm (of course), keep boogerhook off bangswitch until target is acquired (of course!) and DO NOT sweep anyone with your muzzle (of course!!!).

Regarding shoulder rigs, something someone might find useful:

9 times out of 10 I'll be carrying IWB, but i do carry my 629 in an old-school safariland shoulder holster when i carry it. Unlike most folks i've ever seen with shoulder holsters, I wear the gun on my dominant side, (I'm a righty, but carry it where most lefties would). I've practiced with empty gun (and later on live-fire) and discovered it's safer and faster for me that way. Next part is hard to describe with words vs video, but basically when drawing, I pull the gun straight out of and away from the holster, not up, and as I'm bringing it to target I twist it from 'upside down' to right-side up (without finger on trigger of course), and the result is the muzzle goes from holster, to target in a straight line, from resting in holster, to pointing at the ground in a straight line, to target. Basically from me to being pointed down range instantly. Unfortunately this can't be done with a horizontal shoulder rig, but easily done with a vertical shoulder rig.

(photos to show holster I'm writing about, I've had this holster since I was a little boy, used to use it for my cap gun The draw I've described is possible because beneath the 'belt flap' seen in the photo, where the lug under the barrel would be, isn't closed, but holds the gun with spring-retention, allowing gun to be pulled straight out instead of having to be pulled up and out)

 

[sidheshooter]

The range I go to has some interesting policies related to this. On the one hand, in deference to both general public training/safety and liability, they have the typically strict no draw policy, as well as 1 shot per second rule, CCWs must stay holstered, etc.

On the other hand, this place offers excellent training-both in-house from the owner (ex mil, current LEO, court expert witness, published book author) as well as guys like Farnam or Michael Janich. They also hold IDPA shoots. The way the owner sees it, he needs to control the relatively unsupervised free range activity, while the classes can focus on doing all the stuff that is expressly forbidden for the general public.

The only issue of course, is guys like me who have 'certs from advanced classes there, but technically can't practice any of the manipulations/techniques we learn on our own time.

He deals with that by allowing free retakes of any class that you complete successfully. I've done three passes at his defensive handgun level 1 (actually an intermediate class) alone, to say nothing of the other offerings. The idea is that students can reinforce all the high speed stuff basically for ammo cost at least once a month, but when coming in as regular range members, we have to do it the same way as the guy next to us.

I actually bought a 9mm just for training (never really felt strongly about the cartridge, but I'm not a reloader) and tend to bring my SAAs and odd vintage pieces for range days, working more precision stuff in public.

I feel I get as much or more learning done by taking class no less than quarterly, than I would worrying about some TV-trained clown doing quick draw from a shoulder holster next to me weekly at range days.


At any rate, the overarching principle here is: strictly control the general populace activities on the range, because you have to, while allowing for some sort of easily accessible "advanced skills appropriate time" for people who go to the effort of getting checked out for the privilege. It can be schedule dependent (like my classes, above) or location dependent (like the separate 3-side berms further above), but either way prudence dictates some sort of tiered access.

FWIW.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The problem with public ranges are that the rules are made for the least common denominator and they treat everyone as a potential idiot. If one guy is so maladroit as to be a danger practicing drawing from a holster then NOBODY can practice drawing from a holster.

Come to think of it these rules are a lot like the current collectivist gun laws that treat everyone like a potential criminal. The difference is that you can choose not to go to that range.

 

[smalls]

I choose not to go to ranges that don't allow drawing from the holster. A range employee once asked where my gun was when I only walked in with a few boxes of ammo. I replied that it was on my hip, I was shooting my carry gun. He informed me I'd have to go out to my car, unload it, and bring it in a case. They didn't allow CC, or drawing from a holster. I went outside, but did not go back in.
When I go shooting, I always have fun. But I also like to practice, as it is fun, and useful. I understand accidents can happen, and they'rre trying to prevent them, but I don't like being treated like a child, with a bunch of rules.