How many yards away will a BG be?

[Grayrock]

Got a new CCW and now I want to practice with it. What is the "BEST" range to practice at? Statistically, at what range do encounters with BG's happen? And who keeps stats like that? I intend to practice at a variety of ranges, but if I can set my sights for dead-on accuracy, how far would that be? The pistol range near my house has benches and a roof at 25 yards. I think that is a little far. I can walk up closer if no one else is there, but that is not very often. IIRC when I got my CHL, we shot at 3, 7 & 15 yards (or was it 5/10/15?)

 

[sm]

Rules of three comes to mind.
Encounters, 3yds, 3shots, 3secs. its over.

 

[ACP230]

Some years ago a man got sideways with life and started shooting a rifle at cars from a rest stop on the main highway about 40 miles from here.
I drive by there sometimes and the closest he would have been to the cars was about 35 yards.

I think the correct thing to do in that situation would have been to drive out of the kill zone ASAP. However, if the criminal got lucky and disabled a car, the driver might have been forced to shoot back, if he had a pistol.

I think of that incident whenever someone says 25 or 50 yards is too far to practice with a snubnose, or any other self-defense handgun.

I practice regularly at two, three, seven and 15 yards. I practice at 25 yards fairly often and at 50 occasionally. It's about time to shoot at 50 again.

 

[444]

" if I can set my sights for dead-on accuracy"
That for me would be 25 yards. At three yards, any discrepency in your sights won't matter. But, if you zeroed for three, you might have a problem at 25.
You need to practice at all ranges. You can't pick the time, place, or distance of an attack. There are statistics on this, but what if your incident happens to be the exception to the rule ? Don't buy into this crap about justifying a shooting to the DA. If you are under attack with deadly force and you HAVE to shoot to defend your life, it doesn't matter how far away the guy was. By the same token, if you are involved in a bad shoot at 3 yards you will have just as hard a time explaining that to the DA.

By the way, the average length of a super market asile is 25 yards. Wal-Mart ?
If it is your kid in trouble from that distance............................

 

[geekWithA.45]

I practice @ 7,10 & 25 yards, and for an occassional treat, 3 yards at absolute max shoot/reload pace.

I don't bother with 15 or 20, because if I hit @ 25, I'll hit @ the lesser ranges.

The primary difference in practice is that I'll shoot faster @ closer ranges, and slower @ farther ranges, all trying to find the fastest pace that keeps a consistent cone of fire on the order of 6 inches or so for that range.

 

[vrwc]

Best Bet is to know your weapon, (having been USMC this takes on a whole new level
)and your capabilities. Shoot when it’s dark/blinding sun, snow/wind/rain, shoot without earplugs a few times, practice breathing, in my opinion a good thing to do is run until you are good and tired then try to rapidly fire and hit targets. If you have access to targets that move that is invaluable. Also keep in mind for you folks that don’t reside in the prairie hitting targets that are above you or below you takes practice its quite a bit different than hitting a shoulder level target that is standing still. If you are only concerned with self defense, don’t worry about dead on accuracy if you can get 2-3 shots in a chest size area that’s good enough. Remember it’s not the first shot that wins but the first hit.
The rifleman’s creed is a good primer just substitute pistol

THIS IS MY RIFLE
There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I master my life.
My rifle, without me is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than any enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will....
My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weakness, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace........................

 

[BerettaNut92]

vrwc, cool name

Yards? Up to the BG.....

 

[sanchezero]

As has been said, it's best to work at all feasible ranges. However, it is important to note that your practice at 25 yds must be different than your shooting at 3 feet for either to be effective.

Many if not most violent conflicts, by their nature, are at 'bad breath' distance, even those in which both parties have firearms. Shooting at this range is often neglected but when was the last time you heard an account of an assault or robbery that took place from across the street.

Look for some good training. I'd suggest both a good skill building class as well as a close range gunfighting and/or integrated force class. Take the info from these classes and develop your practice accordingly.

Don't neglect HTH skills; odds are pretty good you'll need them to even get to your gun.

 

[jacketch]

Statistically most of these incidents happen at less than 15 yds.

Have you heard of the statistician who drowned in water that averaged less than 12 inches deep. I train so that I can handle the situation at both ends of the bell curve.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Let's see, few people are ever stabbed, raped, or beaten at more than 1 yard and most at much closer. Muggings are about the same. Shootings usually aren't more than 10 yards even though they can happen at much greater ranges.

Hackathorn teaches that the magic number is 10 yards. If you, as a non military and non-leo person can be a close range expert of sorts, then you should be very well off. For defensive purposes he suggests 90% training at 10 yards and less and 10% training for distances greater than 10 yards. And here he is specifically referring to defensive training and not to generic bullseye marksmanship shooting. Bulleye marksmanship shooting is a good skill to learn, but the format is not one that caters well to defensive shooting as it isn't often you can stand still with a perfect stance and squeeze off shots, slow fire, at a stationary bad guy.

 

[Ryder]

at 'bad breath' distance

I can confirm that. Just outside of arms reach to put it another way.

 

[Devonai]

I can put all my shots into a 18"x18" square at 35 yards from prone, kneeling, and standing. However, this is only when shooting at three-dimensional targets. I can't group on paper for beans. Good thing BGs are 3D, last I checked.

Too bad these results are on dry, sunny days when I am calm, happy, and warm. Make things wet and miserable and make me scared and cold and I don't know how well I'll do.

 

[Kobun]

I have shot the pistol I have used for carry at 220yards.
Had about 60-70% hits on the target.
Atleast I know how to hold the sights to get the rounds on target.
More knowlege = more options.

 

[Grayrock]

Kobun- what kind of gun? How much holdover ? Pretty impressive.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Kobun, assuming you were hitting something like silhouettes at 220 yards (and not targets such as a barn), just at what point in the sky did you aim to get those shots to hit? With a .45 acp, you should have well over 3 feet of drop at that range and maybe 7 or 8 depending on the load.

 

[WT]

I recently read an article about NYPD and its 150+ years history of gunfights. About 50% of gunfights were at 5 FEET or less.

 

[444]

Two problems with that: #1-Most of the people reading this are not law enforcement officers. #2-The other 50% occured at distances greater than 5 feet.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

I am in strong agreement with Sanchezero, Kobun and WT. Statistics show us that about 98% of all defensive shootings are within 21 feet and just over 50% are within 5 feet. I believe the most important, and often overlooked, defensive shooting skill is the drawstroke and presentation. Being able to get that muzzle toward the threat quickly and smoothly is about 70% of the fight (if not more). The fact is it takes little skill to hit someone at 5 feet, even under stress but drawing the pistol takes a bit more doing. It is certainly possible, if not probable, that you may need to use your support hand to hold off your attacker while you get your gun into play. This could include trying to keep your opponent busy by forcing him/her to fight for, rather than with, their weapon. I would say a big part of your defensive training should center on getting the gun into action, start simple (standing facing the threat) and add complexity (sitting, prone, strong hand and weak hand, ect.). Next add movement, across the line of fire and away to cover. Remember that since it takes little skill to hit someone at five feet you should open up the distance so your greater skill can be a deciding factor. Kobun mentioned longe range shooting and I agree it should be practiced and for several reasons. First, it gives the shooter confidence. If you know that you can hit at 100+ yards, you can sure as hell do it at 15. Being sure and confident in your abilitys is a big plus. There is also the remote possibility that you may, one day, be in an atypical situation that requires you to shoot at a target far beyond typical ranges. I thought it was very well said More Knowledge=More Options.

First step, get in the fight.

Second step, fight intelligently (move and use cover).

Always, stay in the fight. Down does not mean out.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

444, most police shootings average longer ranges than the private citizen faces. The police may deal with barricaded suspects but there is almost zero chance of that happening to a defensive shooter. The private citizen is only trying to save themself and possibly others while the police are to seek out and run down criminals. That mandate to follow and apprehend can lead to longer range confrontations than the private citizen is likely to face.

 

[444]

Jake, you and I are in complete agreement. The point I try to get across is that just because X% of shooting occur within X distance doesn't mean that we shouldn't be prepared for the ones that don't occur within that distance.
It isn't hard at all to come up with reasonable senarios involving private citizens where you would have to shoot at a distance greater than five feet. A couple examples: What might be the furthest distance in your house from your bedroom door ? I live in a very small house (1000 sq. feet). If I had someone knockdown my front door and I was waiting on them from my bedroom door, the distance would be about 18 feet. Even if you barricaded yourself in your bedroom and someone broke through the door, the width of your bedroom is greater than five feet. I mentioned an average grocery store isle being about 25 yards. We had an incident a couple years ago here locally where a guy flipped out, went to a grocery store with a shotgun and started shooting people at random. If you happened to be in that store, and this guy was between you and the door, I seriously doubt that you would be within five feet of him and live to tell about it. You may have had to shoot for your life at a distance in excess of 25 yards and been fully justified in doing so; you might have even saved a number of lives in addition to your own. The so called "DC Sniper" incidents show a possible senario where you might have to shoot at a considerable distance in self defense. Let's say you are out in the middle of a large parking lot and some nut is at the end with a rifle. There is nothing to say that he couldn't start shooting when you are out in the open with only asphalt between you and cover. In all likelyhood you would not have a good chance of survival, but there is really no way of predicting how something like this would play out. Obviously you are going to run for cover rather than just stand there and hope he can't hit you before you considered returning fire, but let's say your family was with you and you decided to try to keep his head down so your family could make it to safety.
The bottom line is that many people get some self defense senario in their mind and don't seem to realize that it might not go down that way. These things aren't predictable. They can and do happen in ways that you have never even thought of. If you HAVE to shoot to defend your life, the distance involved shouldn't be a legal issue. Note again that I said that you HAD to shoot to defend your life because the situation dictate this course of action. If you are going to arm yourself for your own protection you shouldn't ONLY focus on the easiest senarios, or even the most likely. You need to try to constantly improve your skills to handle any situation that might occur. Even then you won't be guarenteed of surviving, but it makes it more likely.

 

[Kobun]

No Double Naught Spy, it wasn't a barn.
The target was a IPSC target.

Grayrock, it was with my Glock 34. I had at the time Trijicon sights on it.
I'm not sure of the hold over, but I placed the center of the front sight dot at the top of the rear sight.
Then I placed the top of the front sight at the top edge of the target, and most rounds impacted somewhere around the middle of the target.

Confusing? Try it yourself.
Just bring a friend with a spotting scope (or rifle scope) to spot you and tell you where you are missing...
You will miss at first, but when you figure out how to hold the sights, you will start seeing impacts on the target.

Knowing you are able to hit at extended ranges will give you a great boost of confidence, and will do nothing but good for your shooting at "conventional" ranges.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

444, I am with you 100%. Start with what history tells us is likely and when you have a 95% solution on that then add the less likely scenarios and work the skills to meet that threat. Continue to work the basics you have already developed but just expand on what you can do.

Just like adding tools to the toolbox. Start with the everyday tools, add the specialty stuff as you go.

 

[444]

Jake, the reason I made an issue of this is because I have read threads like this and read posts where someone said something like: most gunfights occur at ____ yards, so that is what I practice and that is ALL I am going to practice because statistically that is all I will ever need.

That to me is like saying: I drive the vast majority of the time during daylight so I don't need headlights on my car.

 

[King]

I think most contact will be at close range. One definition of close range is the measurement of the longest distance you might have to shoot inside your home (ie; from the kitchen to the front room). That could vary quite a bit depending on the size and dynamics of your domicle. I think it wise to know what that maximum distance and the practice it. That's about 30 feet in my case.

At 25 yards or so should cover most other cases. As noted in some of the other posts, you probably won't get to dictate the circumstancess of an encounter but it could be in a parking lot, restarant, at the mall, etc. I think it wise to practice at that distance. It would also be wise to practice other personal defense manueuvers just in case (getting small, loacting cover, avoiding danger, etc)

 

[Steve in PA]

This is more LEO related, but......

In 2001, there were 61 LEO's killed feloniously by firearms. Here is the break down of distances.

Officers/distance
27 / 0-5 feet
19 / 6-10 feet
5 / 11-20 feet
5 / 21-50 feet
3 / over 50 feet
2 / not reported

Using that information I'd say your average shooting is going to be very close.