CCW'ing car-jacker shot by CCW'ing victim!

[Preacherman]

From the Philadelphia Daily News ( http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/15204722.htm?source=rss&channel=dailynews_local ):

Posted on Sat, Aug. 05, 2006

78-year-old thwarts West. Phila. carjacker

By SIMONE WEICHSELBAUM


SUSPECTED gunman William Edney picked the wrong vehicle to carjack Thursday morning, paying with his blood for the poor decision, police said.

Edney, 23, watched as his bounty, a wine-colored 2004 Ford Expedition, pulled up to a rowhouse on Larchwood Avenue near 58th Street, West Philadelphia, about 6:15 a.m.

A seemingly easy target, a senior citizen with a slow gait, climbed out of the SUV.

Edney clutched a 9 mm handgun and crept up to the senior, whispering, "Don't do anything funny," police later said.

The elderly man, George Newton, 78, unhesitatingly handed him the keys. Edney hopped into the driver's seat still holding the gun in his right hand, Newton told the Daily News yesterday, while sitting on the stoop of his West Philadelphia rowhouse.

Newton said he watched as Edney struggled to hold the gun and shift gears with the same hand. Newton said he seized the opportunity, and pulled out his revolver, firing one shot into Edney's jaw.

Edney drove off, but Newton "came around to the driver's side and shot him again," striking him in the shoulder, police said.

"Both windows were down so I didn't mess up any of my glass," Newton said.

Edney zig-zagged down Larchwood Avenue trying to escape the bullets.

Newton said he was surprised that Edney didn't smash into any of the neighbors' cars. Police said Edney drove himself to a hospital where he told the medical staff he didn't know who had shot him, Newton said.

Edney was listed in stable condition last night at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.

Lt. John Walker of Southwest Detectives said Edney had been charged with robbery, carjacking and related crimes.

Both Edney and Newton are licensed to carry a firearm, Walker said.

Newton said he always travels the streets with his gun, a .38-special snub nose, even when driving his grandchildren around.

On Thursday Newton followed his daily routine - driving to his daughter's home to pick up her four children, ages 11 to an infant, for day care.

Although the carjacker did startle him, Newton said he was prepared for the fight.

"I was in the military police in Germany," Newton said recalling his 1940s Army service. "And I have friends who are narcotics officers."

Newton is waiting for police to return his car and gun.

He said he tries to avoid the spotlight, and after retiring from his longtime career as a car mechanic, Newton said he just wants to relax.

"All I do now is go to the park and feed the birds and the squirrels," he said with a grin.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Um, what am I missing here? Is it really o.k. in Pennsylvania to shoot someone who is attempting to drive off in your car? This doesn't look like a legally justifiable shooting in any jurisdictions I am am familiar with. It may be morally justifiable, depending on your own beliefs, but I have my doubts about legal justification.

 

[jlbraun]

Darnit.

Why can't people be responsible? Not a justifiable shooting IMHO.

 

[wqbang]

Probably not the whole story as usual.

 

[hso]

The way it's presented the thief wasn't a threat yet the car owner shot him to prevent him from leaving and to retain his property. That doesn't sound like a justifiable shooting.

 

[ceetee]

In many places, the comission of a felony while armed shows intent to cause further harm ro others. In those jurisdictions, it's allowable to use deadly force to prevent the further comission of armed felonies...

 

[The_Shootist]

In Texas...

...that would be pretty justifiable

 

[Handgun Midas]

I'm going to assume that anybody who will use a gun (or knife) to attempt to rob me or force me to cooperate will also use that weapon to eliminate me as a witness. Any other assumption is putting your faith in a criminal.

Perhaps this old dude had the same thought. Perhaps he would have trouble fleeing, as the article states (he did chase the car an unknown distance though). He took action against his aggressor when he could, and if support that.


For clarification, would those of you that feel this is shooting is non-justifiable still feel the same way if the victim had finished the job with the first shot, and thus not have needed to go after the fleeing criminal and shoot again?

 

[Steve in PA]

It is not justifiable to use deadly force in this situation. Whether or not he will be charged is yet to be seen.

 

[SuperNaut]

One of the initial reports about the guy who shot those people at the Seattle Jewish Center said that he was "licensed to carry" as well. I've been unsuccesfully trying to verify this since.

I suspect it is false in this case as well.

 

[Father Knows Best]

What is Pennsylvania's stance on CCW? I'm at work and so can't access packing.org or I would look it up myself....

 

[TexasRifleman]

In many places, the comission of a felony while armed shows intent to cause further harm ro others. In those jurisdictions, it's allowable to use deadly force to prevent the further comission of armed felonies...

And that line of thinking is exactly why you'd be OK in Texas.

The guy has already shown willingness to use a weapon in commission of a felony, it is reasonable to expect he intends to use the jacked car for more than going to the drive in movie. Society benefits by the thief being shot.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

heck

it would be legal in loisiana. and i'd take chanes with a va jury.

 

[damyankee]

Is anyone else bothered that even though it is obviously morally justifiable, the laws (in some states) say it isnt??? Sorry, just venting....:banghead:

 

[HankB]

"Both windows were down so I didn't mess up any of my glass," Newton said.

I LIKE this statement!

The perp still had his gun, and was in a motor vehicle - a two ton battering ram. That made him a threat. Deadly force was justified.

The only problem I see with the outcome is that Newton should have used a bigger gun or better ammo.

 

[mec]

Chapter nine of the texas penal code lists robbery and aggrevated robbery among the specific crimes where deadly force is justified. It also allows deadly force to property if lesser means would put the victim in deadly danger or the property cannot be regained by any other means.

all use of deadly force carries the stipulation that lesser force would not have sufficed to prevent the activity in question.

 

[grampster]

If the story is as presented, the carjacker was armed, he had the gun in his hand, and he had not left the scene, he was fumbling with the shifter (ND possibillity). The second shot could be justified on the basis of attempting to stop a wounded, violent thief from causing more harm if he crashed the vehicle.

The threat was not over and was ongoing. I think the shooting was justifiable on that basis. You stick a gun in someone's face and rob them, you have crossed the line from a property crime to crime of personal threat or violence as there was an ongoing armed confrontation

Occupational hazard for the bg.

 

[afsnco]

A lot of the states that passed the new Castle Doctrine legislation specifically include shooting someone during a car-jacking as justified.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Um, what am I missing here? Is it really o.k. in Pennsylvania to shoot someone who is attempting to drive off in your car? This doesn't look like a legally justifiable shooting in any jurisdictions I am am familiar with. It may be morally justifiable, depending on your own beliefs, but I have my doubts about legal justification.

But you missed the salient point: this took place in Philadelphia. And you missed something else:

"I was in the military police in Germany," Newton said recalling his 1940s Army service. "And I have friends who are narcotics officers."

Did I mention that this took place in Philadelphia?

 

[Landor]

The victim was 78 years old. He was being hijacked by a young man with a gun. You think he wouldn't feel threatened. Hell, I sure would.

 

[Tearlachblair]

Personally, I disagree with the whole "justified shooting" principle as some portray it:banghead: . To me, this is a perfectly justified shooting. It's sad someone died, but it's the fault of the deceased that he was dumb enough to try to screw someone who was packing.

 

[Sistema1927]

Let's get something straight:

Edney is the BAD guy, and
Newton is the GOOD guy.

Edney is a young punk who carjacks the elderly, Newton is a seasoned citizen who didn't put up with Edney's crap. I hope that Newton gets his car back, his gun back, and a medal from the city fathers. Instead, he will probably end up being charged with a crime, especially if those in power see this the way that some of our High Roaders have.

 

[AJD]

No one died.

Wow...if having someone put a gun in your face and telling you "Don't do anything funny" isnt justification to fight back...then honestly I'd hate to know what is...do you need to be shot first? Get slashed by a knife? Take a few roundhouse shots to your head?

And don't even try to use the "He was just trying to steal the car" routine. I've seen way to many surveillance videos and read way to many stories where someone is robbed and once the thief has all of the goods he puts a few shots into the person he's robbing before leaving.

 

[FJC]

All we know is what was in the article, and who knows how accurate that is. Perhaps the victim had pulled his .38 and told the carjacker to stop - then the carjacker started to swing the gun toward him, so he fired. Maybe the carjacker had said something to the victim indicating he planned to kill him, i.e., "Now that I have your keys old man, *maybe* I won't kill you."

Who knows? Only two people know for sure what happened, and neither are here to discuss it.

 

[mnrivrat]

Not mentioned yet so I guess I will do this part - how did the perp (car jacker) get a license to carry a weapon ? If he has the criminal record indicated would that not stop him from acquiring a CCW ?

I would guess that in my state you would be asking for trouble if you didn't just let the car jacker drive off. It depends a lot on the mentality of the district attorney , police , etc. in the that area I would think.

It's hard to say what the "small" details of this situation were, and therfore darn near impossible to come to a good legal conclusion wether justifiable or not. Based on what's written there only he could be in trouble IMO .