Chain gun stores

[P0832177]

Face facts Shooter are cheap b$st$rds. We all want something for nothing! SW has great prices in the Mpls metro, and they have selection. I will not comment on the people working there, though! Their margin is slim! Cabelas trades guns, whereas SW does not! People clain Cabelas has good prices, and from what I have seen that is not the case! Till bought out, Galyans has some great prices on high end guns, ie HK, Rem., Benelli (sp?), and they were starting to take trade ins. Since slick willy purged the kitchen table FFL holders there are fewer and fewer dealers around. Hell, I used to live in a small town of 1500, and there were 23 FFL holders, only 5 had store fronts Pamida, Coast to Coast, a gas station, Gambles, and men's shop.

But, when you buy from large chains they have to make a buck, and a case in point. A small gun shop I frequent pays about about 800 bucks a month CC fees! Imagine what Cabelas or SW pays out by taking plastic? Sure that is cost of doing business, but it affects the pricing structure.

This is a hobby, and last I checked they cost money!

 

[CajunBass]

I ask to see what I'm looking at. I ask "What do you want for it?" The dealer will say "X". I either say "I'll take it." Or "No thank you."

I figure what he says is what he wants. I can either pay it, or not. If I start out the door, and he doesn't call me back, I assume he was telling me the truth.

 

[Tejas Gunwerks]

Additionally, I'm not defrauding the state by not paying sales tax, since I'm not the one being taxed. Sales tax is assessed against the merchant, and it is at the merchant's discretion whether to pass that cost on to the customer (which is, of course, normal practice). Either that, or we're all defrauding the state when we pay for concessions at movies or ballgames, since we're not paying x% over the displayed price.


The only state I am concerned with is Texas, this is where I am licensed. Yes, there is a use tax on items bought over the internet. You are breaking state law if you don't send it in. Just because at this time Texas has no practical way of enforcing it does not mean you don't have to pay. The seller has no discretion whether to pass the tax on to the customer, it is law. Merchants collect it we don't charge it the state does.

 

[Control Group]

The only state I am concerned with is Texas, this is where I am licensed. Yes, there is a use tax on items bought over the internet. You are breaking state law if you don't send it in. Just because at this time Texas has no practical way of enforcing it does not mean you don't have to pay. The seller has no discretion whether to pass the tax on to the customer, it is law. Merchants collect it we don't charge it the state does.

Have a reference for this? Every state sales tax I am aware of (which is, admittedly, not all of them, and doesn't include TX) the responsibility for paying the sales tax rests upon the merchant, not the consumer. It is a tax on the sale itself. This is why the consumer doesn't need to fill out a tax form of any kind for the point-of-sale sales taxes. It is also why a consumer from out of state can file with the local state government to recover sales tax inappropriately charged by a merchant (no one does this, of course).

You are, however, correct insofar as I am required to pay the tax on items I buy via mail order or the internet because the merchant is untaxable. The point of taxation is always government to merchant if possible, since that means the government gets paid. As long as the government gets paid, no law is being broken. They don't care if I pay you the sales tax, as long as you pay them the sales tax. If you do not charge me sales tax, it isn't fraud unless you don't, in turn, pay the government their cut of the sale.

If you'd prefer, though, you can think of it as giving me a 5.9% discount on the price while simultaneously charging me 6.25% sales tax. This is obviously within your discretion as a seller, and is not any kind of fraud, and gives exactly the same result.

Obviously, you don't want to lower your price by 5.9%. That's fine. But telling me I'm committing a crime if you do is just plain silly.

 

[saddlebum]

i'll make an an offer on a gun if i know i can buy it for that price elsewhere. but i don't make outrageous low ball offers.

 

[Jet22]

I've been on both ends of the stick. I know that when a dealer shows you "dealers cost" he may be paying 12-16.5% less (can you say "Ruger"?) for it and may be getting dating (dating means we recieved the items in February and don't pay for them untill December first, no interest). Most dealers are NOT buying direct and the ones that do are getting a lot better pricing (Marlin, Remington, etc). If they have to buy from a distributor, the distributor makes all the profit. There is no way a small dealer will get the same pricing as a dealer that is getting their guns direct from Marlin or Browning. I know some reloading lines we paid 39% of retail price and sold for 10% off retail...and we got dating on top of that!

Things like liabilty insurance will drive a dealer right out of business. Ever been sued because the guy you sold a gun to used it to pull his buddy back into the boat after he had fallen out and the gun went off and you didn't tell him you should not use a gun for that purpose? This caused the shop that I worked at to have its insurance doubled. Many shops fly without wings (no insurance) and will lose everything for one frivolous law suit.

Most of the prices on used guns are "fishing" prices. Some are very desireable guns and there is no reason to come down. Others are just priced because you have to put something on them. I aways tried to work with customers and give them the best possible deal. Some guys want to steal the gun from you and want top dollar for their trade-in. The guy I aways hated to deal with was the one that would say "Will you take XXX for this gun" and when you would say "Yes" he would say "I'll think about it". I started answering that question with "I don't know, nobody has offered me that amount yet". In other words, put up or shut up (money talks, BS walks).

On the buying side, I guess what you need to decide is what you are willing to pay and make an offer. If you don't get it, it wasen't ment to be. I know when I run across a gun that I have wanted for a long time it may be worth paying extra just so I don't have to spend a lot of time and effort looking for another. It has always amazed me that a guy would drive 200 miles to save $20 bucks on a gun so he could brag to his buddy what a good deal he got on it. These days I buy most my guns at gun shows. I don't go looking for a particular gun, I just wait till the right deal comes along. Many times a guy will take half of what he has it priced on the table. Some guys won't budge and have had the same guns on thier table for 5+ years. It still boils down to how bad do you want it and how much will it cost you to find another.

 

[Mr. Kook]

Some dealers intentionally mark their prices high with the expectation that people will negotiate.

The Bullet Hole in Kansas City does that. Last year I spoke with them about a 220ST they had marked for $999. The real price was $750 (quite reasonable at the time). This didn't require any haggling, just asking the price did it. They mark all new guns at MSRP and then let the buyer ask the real price. This was a year ago so I'm sure the price has changed since then.

At gun shows I have found quite a few people will mark a gun maybe $100 or so up off of what they are willing to take for it.

Some dealers will negotiate on the price, others won't. It's just a style of doing business.

At Cabela's in Kansas City, when buying two used guns the first thing they did was visit the gun library and see if they could discount the price (without even asking, it was nice). If you buy more than one used gun at a time they will probably help you out, especially if it's one that has been scratched up a bit. For new guns I think their prices are very firm.

 

[berettashotgun]

Walked into the BIG show at Tusla spring of 2004, intent on finding a winchester model 100 in 284. Didn't have to be perfect or showcased, just a decent one. Found the rifle in all of 10 minutes- at that place!!, the dealer said it was his personal rifle and when I told him I had the cash for his asking price- He dropped the price $75 on the spot. I know I'm part Jew, grandparents with the last name Goldsbury is a sure tip-off, and something about the caps clued me in when I was a little tyke. That dealer MUST have seen me closing in and just caved when I spoke That guy was VERY appreciated that day, I just wish he wouldn't have kept trying to hug my girlfriend (at the time)- Maybe Sandy got the good deal for me- Oh well, I've gotten a deal on most everything I have ever purchased in life by dealing with good intentions and being curteous. Those dealers are just trying to make a living, taking a yoga class might help some of them be nicer

 

[c_yeager]

Have a reference for this? Every state sales tax I am aware of (which is, admittedly, not all of them, and doesn't include TX) the responsibility for paying the sales tax rests upon the merchant, not the consumer.

If a Washington state resident purchases anything from out of state then the burdon is on them to pay sales tax on that item. This has been the law for as long as we have had a sales tax. It hasnt been an issue untill the internet made interstate commerce so readily available to the masses. Historicaly this law has applied more to contractors purchasing materials and equipment more than anything, but it actually does legally apply to everyone.

 

[coonan357]

I pay the price marked on the gun at my local guy because I get services not provided elsewhere . have you gun take a dump on the night before season opens and see where the chainstores get you . my guy stayed after and fixed it for me . and when people come in the store to haggle he asks is that cash or credit . credit no deal , cash he might haggle on the fact hes going to loose 3% to the credit card companies . I know his overhead is high also . and he is willing to do the footwork to get me what I want .Example I wanted a Para He's not a Para dealer calls up his distributor and gets me the Para Dealer price . the guy down the street is a Para dealer and He won't get me the gun I want ! I don't shop at the chain stores and won't I an very loyal to my Shop . and he has always helped me .

 

[Hawken50]

Tejas

Every "negociation" takes money out of my pocket, I feel no need to live in poverty because you are so cheap.

and i'm sure most people feel no need to overpay for something simply because one dealer who they will probably never meet is offended by bargining in general.

judging from your other posts you can save yourself an ulcer by investing in a couple of "PRICES NOT NEGOTIABLE" signs.

 

[Dionysusigma]

Back when I turned 21 (all those months ago), I was in the market for a Makarov. Azrael256 and I walked into Brigadoon's (locally-owned milsurp shop) and immediately set to drooling over all the used stuff. Only Mak I saw had a chrome slide , but nearby was a Bersa. I had a Mossberg 590 in the trunk that I had never fired along with 100 rounds of cheep WalMart Winchester 12ga and five Remington slugs. I told Mark (owner) that I wanted the Bersa, and asked what he could do on the shotgun.

"$25.00," he said. I wasn't sure that what I heard was right, and asked him to clarify. "$25.00 for the NICS check," he replied. "Even trade sound good?"

About 45 minutes later, I walked out with a like-new Bersa .380, a spare mag, four boxes of .40, three boxes of .380 (one that was missing about 12 rounds was only $1.00), three 6.5x55, one 525-rd brick of .22, fifteen boxes of 7.62x39, and only $140 lighter. And Azrael256 walked out with a simply superb K31.

Sometimes, haggling ain't necessary.

 

[berettashotgun]

Dionysusigma - I met the guy at Lexington a few years back, he was doing rapid fire with a tricked out mini.My youngest boy, never bashful or at a loss for words, told him some finer points about shooting rapid fire with a toy gun. Ya, the kid could rock with a FAL or Garand when he was 12.ANYWAYS,Mark was laughing about it-but was actually listening- I thought his courteous and respectful demeanor would be a real plus in business. BTW, Jake hasn't fired a rifle or shotgun in over a year- but he sure is puddycat whipped.

 

[Rembrandt]

Hard to negotiate with stores using bar codes and scanners with minimum wage check out personnel.....if there's no bar code, let the haggling begin!

 

[Tejas Gunwerks]

I am not so opposed to negociating as I am to customers who have no idea what the item cost, what my overhead is and what my profit margin is. The actually try to negotiate my prices below my cost. Simply because they have not done their research. They not the Dealer come in with an attitude that they are entitled to a lower price. I negociate all the time, customer attitude plays a big part in it. What I don't like is when my price is marked, a customer ask me to come down. The way the game is played is, then the customer counters, this goes back and forth, we reach an agreement. Just don't stand there asking me to come down. When you lowball me hundreds under what I paid for my product do you really think I will take you seriously? Those are the customers who get prices raised on them to make a point.

 

[entropy]

I'll take a Puckle and two 25mm's for my Bradley, please!

It's hard to work the price of a new gun down; You're better off trying to get $$ off accessories, and most dealers will throw in a box of ammo (depending on caliber) with a new gun purchase to get a fence-sitter to buy. As has already been noted, there's very little profit in new guns, the profit is in the accessories, particularly clothing.

 

[Charlie]

Tejas,
You have every right to your opinion and may run your business as you see fit. I must say though, with the attitude you seem to have, you are probably running some business (good customers, not the losers) off. While browsing at gun shows (Texas gun shows), aside from looking, buying, etc., a great deal of my time is spent listening to conversations between potential buyers and dealers. It always appears that the courteous dealers have bigger crowds and make more sales than the others who ridicule or insult potential buyers. I'm not saying you do that as I don't know you, but your attitude is showing. When you state you ".....don't need uninformed buyers" (or something like that), you certainly limit your customer base. Most folks at the gun shows have not researched every gun they admire. Good luck.

 

[GEM]

Amusing - I research prices so I have a good idea. I find it not insulting if I ask the dealer if that is his or her best price or can they do a little better. It works even in Sears. I saved $100 on a refrigerator.

About attitude. At the Saxet show, several years ago, I wanted to buy a Winchester Defender. Dealer A had them and so did Dealer B. I asked dealer A if it was his best price. He is a notorious Crank - he sez: What do expect me to lose money!!.

I might respect - No, that's my best price given my profit margin.

Dealer B - turns out he was a psych major, like me and we chatted - got the gun for $10 less.

I once bought a knife for more from a dealer who let me see his high end automatic knives.

So be cranky if you want.

 

[Tejas Gunwerks]

Some of you still don't get it. My item is priced, fairly priced. Customer just stands there asking me to come down. For why? Why won't he counter offer my original offer, it is marked, this is negociation. Standing there saying "nope, not low enough, go lower" is not how the game is played. I offer, you counter, I counter your counter, we work it out. If you lowball me hundreds of dollars and then essentially call me a liar when I tell you what my price is, you are right I don't need that uneducated customer. There is another right behind him will to pay a fair price. I am the only person in the show who knows what I need to get for my product. My attitude hiding behind this keyboard is not the same as in person. I doubt you will find many people saying I have a bad attitude. I guarantee there are more customers with bad attitudes than dealers. What is the number of dealers vs. customers? Logic tells you the number is overwhelming, my experience backs that up.

 

[Wastemore]

Tejas,
If you have uneducated customers, you have failed. Not everyone has access to gun pricing information, let alone the time. You are the professional and it is your job to educate customers on the sale from start to finish, from pricing to safe handling. I understand that you're under no obligation to share with anyone what your profit margin is, but, it might be the wiser to explain to the hagglers why they're getting a fair deal.
It's interesting how retailers believe that customers are stupid. While they may be uneducated about a specific product, they're smart enough to go where their dollar stretches the farthest and where the guy behind the counter is willing to spend a few extra minutes, even if that few extra minutes is explaining pricing. Retail is a tough business and the days where customers pay the ticketed price without complaining are long gone.
I will always try to haggle for price. I also go where I feel I get the best service for that price.
Firearm customers seem to be very loyal to their dealers. We're a weird breed. We appreciate sitting around the shop on a Saturady yapping about the current political situation, etc. My dealer knows me on a first name basis and does little things for me, like mounting and bore sighting my glass for me free of charge, even if I already have the glass. Because of the "little things", in a strange sort of way, I feel obligated to the guy. It's a win/ win situation.

On a positive note- keep plugging away and know that us shooters appreciate guys like you keep firearms available for us. We all know that the paperwork mounts and the regulations are enough to make you want to pull out your hair. So, thanks.

B-

 

[GEM]

Terry, if you tell me the gun cost you X (honestly) and to run your business you need to mark it to Y, that's the response I respect. I may not buy it but I understand realistic business practices. If others are butts, well, most people are butts!!

Maybe I'll see you at a Saxet show. I bought something from Spreadfire (mags) and they were nice guys.

 

[Sheldon J]

Now here is a trick I bet none of you have ever thought of. My 18 year old works for a chain sporting goods store, and I bet other stores do this too, when they take back a gun for various reasons they put it in a storage room, sometimes these guns will set there for several years in their origional box unused, in new condition.
How do I know this? I bought a Stoger 12 gague over under NIB minus extra choke tubes other wise in 100% condition $225.00, a NIB 870 in .410 $125.00. The boy put me on to these. These guns were purchased and returned for some obscure reason returned and stored as they were no longer considered new and could not be sold as such, and they had no provisions to sell them. Talked to the store manager, and he decided uppon the prices.

 

[lildog]

Hi Folks,New to this,I have a question on ohio ammo laws. I heard you must present I.D. to purchase ammo,what are the details of this? New to shooting,and just wanna plink some cans in the back 40 here.But ifnya gotta fill out forms and stuff, I may just use a slingshot,lol.......