changes coming in Switzerland?

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longeyes

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April 17, 2007
Gun debate sets sights on army ammo
Army-issue weapons are said to be involved in the deaths of more than 300 people in Switzerland every year

Army-issue weapons are said to be involved in the deaths of more than 300 people in Switzerland every year (Keystone)

A Senate committee has taken a first step towards banning the country's 120,000-strong militia army from storing ammunition at home.

It comes at a time of increased debate in Switzerland over the long-standing tradition of keeping army guns at home, and shock at the killing of more than 30 students in the United States' worst-ever shooting.

It also follows a fatal shooting last week in the northern city of Baden when a 26-year-old Swiss emptied the magazine of his military rifle inside a hotel restaurant, killing one man and injuring four others.

Speaking after Monday's 11-1 vote in favour of an ammunition ban, Hermann Bürgi, president of the Senate committee on security policy, denied that members had been influenced by recent events and media pressure.

The proposal, which will now be examined by the seven-strong cabinet and parliament, would allow for around 2,000 specialist troops, such as those guarding airports and other important installations, to keep ammunition at home. The government would also be able to lift the ban in the event of a security crisis.

Bürgi added that the vote should in no way be seen as a first step towards putting a bullet in the sacred Swiss cow of keeping army rifles and pistols at home. "The decision does not create a precedent," he said.

Willy Pfund, president of the country's gun lobby Pro Tell, said on Tuesday that society rather than the practice of keeping army weapons at home was to blame for gun violence.

He added that storing ammunition and guns in different places made no sense in terms of defending the country.

Nationwide vote

But on Tuesday pacifists and centre-left parties said they would push ahead with plans to force a nationwide vote to scrap the practice of keeping army guns at home.

They are due to decide on whether to launch a people's initiative on May 25. Beni Hirt, an official for the centre-left Social Democratic Party involved in the campaign, said the "ready availability of weapons" was a serious problem.

A Lausanne University study, published in December last year, revealed that army-issue weapons were involved in the deaths of more than 300 people every year.

Hirt said the Senate committee's decision was "a step in the right direction" but would have no influence on his campaign. He said all military weapons should be removed from Swiss homes and a national gun register introduced.

"Everyone knows that it is very easy to obtain ammunition from rifle ranges," he said. "It's just a question of not firing all the cartridges that you get and putting the rest in your pocket."

Tighter gun laws?

All able-bodied Swiss men aged 20-30 are conscripted for about three months and issued with a rifle.

After initial training, they are required to do three or four weeks of army service a year until they have served a total of 260 days or reached the age of 34. Throughout this time they keep their rifles and 50 rounds of ammunition at home.

Five years ago Switzerland was stunned when a gunman shot and killed 14 people in Zug's cantonal parliament with his army rifle, before turning the gun on himself.

Debate on the use of firearms was further fuelled in April last year when the husband of former women's ski champion Corinne Rey-Bellet killed his wife and her brother with his army pistol.

In June 2006 the Senate came out in favour of slightly stricter rules for purchasing and keeping firearms but a significant tightening of the law was not on the table.

At the end of March the House of Representatives rejected by 96 votes to 80 a proposal to tighten the gun law, including having a central arms register.

swissinfo with agencies

CONTEXT


In September 2006 the government said family tragedies and suicides were not valid reasons to stop soldiers from keeping their army weapons at home.

Swiss Defence Minister Samuel Schmid, a member of the rightwing Swiss People's Party, argues that Switzerland's militia army needs to be able to mobilise rapidly.

Among those demanding tighter gun laws are Amnesty International, the Swiss Peace Council, the Victims of Violence Forum, the Stop Suicide Association, Ipsilon (the Initiative for the Prevention of Suicide in Switzerland) and the Swiss Society of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy.


KEY FACTS


* There are an estimated 1.6 to 2 million firearms in circulation in Switzerland.
* About a third of all murder cases involve private guns and army weapons.
* Army weapons were used in 68% of suicides, according to a recent study.


RELATED SITES


* Defence ministry (German, French, Italian) (http://www.vbs.admin.ch/internet/vbs/de/home.html )
* Swiss gun law (German, French, Italian) (http://www.parlament.ch/homepage/do-dossiers-az/do-waffengesetz.htm )
* Swiss parliament (http://www.parlament.ch/e/homepage.htm)
* Pro Tell - Swiss gun lobby (http://www.protell.ch/)
* Social Democratic Party (German and French) (http://www.sp-ps.ch/)


URL of this story:http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/swissinfo.html?siteSect=105&sid=7724489
 
What the hell is the Swiss militia system going to do with 50 rounds per man? They might as well have taken the ammo away already for all the good that will do in an emergency.
 
What the hell is the Swiss militia system going to do with 50 rounds per man?
Make their way from home to their muster points?

I'm more bothered by this:
It also follows a fatal shooting last week in the northern city of Baden when a 26-year-old Swiss emptied the magazine of his military rifle inside a hotel restaurant, killing one man and injuring four others.
How do you only manage to hit five--and only one mortally--in an enclosed-target area like a restaurant? Sounds like they need more training.
 
It's the classic scenario we all read about everyday. People are trying to take away the tools, that we use to do the stuff we want to do. Suicide by gun, murder some people in a restaurant, kill the next door neighbor. I can think of 50 ways to do each with out a gun. I am going to do what I think needs to be done. Even if it is without a gun. Take the neighbors gun away that I am trying to kill and you have just made my job 10 times easier.
 
The 26yo in the hotel was probably firing fullauto, accounting for the low number of fatalities.

Homicides and suicides by firearm are not and should never be a reason for removing a right.
 
* About a third of all murder cases involve private guns and army weapons.

I find it interesting that most homicides in Switzerland do NOT involve guns. Apparently twice as many non-gun than gun-related.

One data point against the "more guns = greater homicide proportion with guns" meme.
 
Any "ammunition" the gun grabbers of the world can use, by God they will use it. Very sad situation for Swiss citizens. I hope they voice their dissent and stop these freaks.
 
"Among those demanding tighter gun laws are Amnesty International, the Swiss Peace Council, the Victims of Violence Forum, the Stop Suicide Association, Ipsilon (the Initiative for the Prevention of Suicide in Switzerland) and the Swiss Society of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy."

As in most situations in life, there is no such thing as risk free anything. You mitigate the risk to an acceptable level.

What are these groups doing to mitigate the mental health problems? Gun laws don't help the mentally ill stop suicides, murder or violent acts.
 
A problem I see with this is that those Swiss who are pro-gun are the ones who keep tons of privately purchased ammo at home, so don't care about the few rounds they get given. The anti-gun or apathetic Swiss either want that ammo gone or don't care. Thus there might not be much momentum behind moves to block thise e.g. "who cares, I'll still have all my private ammo"...until they ban that too.

Rather like when they banned self-loading rifles in the UK. All the pistol shooters said "pfft, I'll still have my pistol"...until they banned those too.
 
"Among those demanding tighter gun laws are Amnesty International, the Swiss Peace Council, the Victims of Violence Forum, the Stop Suicide Association, Ipsilon (the Initiative for the Prevention of Suicide in Switzerland) and the Swiss Society of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy
Don't forget the UN and Rebbeca Peters outfit!
 
Last edited:
jlbraun said:
Homicides and suicides by firearm are not and should never be a reason for removing a right.
Nor should something that happens in another country on the other side of the world. I think that's the most disturbing thing to me - that they would even consider what happened over here.
 
I won't start on how much I HATE Amnesty International, and other organisations like them.
"No, you can't kill this childkiller/rapist/graverobber, cuz that would be mean to him. He had a rough childhood, didn't get many toys, and besides, you are all racist, on account of being white!"
 
A problem I see with this is that those Swiss who are pro-gun are the ones who keep tons of privately purchased ammo at home, so don't care about the few rounds they get given. The anti-gun or apathetic Swiss either want that ammo gone or don't care. Thus there might not be much momentum behind moves to block thise e.g. "who cares, I'll still have all my private ammo"...until they ban that too.
Exactly, with the available of ammunition at rifle ranges it seems like this is just the first baby step in the direction of taking home storage of military rifles out of the hands of the swiss. It would be interesting to see this bill followed.
 
A Senate committee has taken a first step towards banning the country's 120,000-strong militia army from storing ammunition at home.

"Militia"? Do the Swiss actually refer to it as "militia"? Are they called something
else like "Reservists"?

It comes at a time of increased debate in Switzerland over the long-standing tradition of keeping army guns at home, and shock at the killing of more than 30 students in the United States' worst-ever shooting.

I guess they should ban steel ball bearings, screws, and rat poison next time
there's a suicide bombing in the ME?

It also follows a fatal shooting last week in the northern city of Baden when a 26-year-old Swiss emptied the magazine of his military rifle inside a hotel restaurant, killing one man and injuring four others.

This and the other incident sound more like a mental health/involuntary commitment
issue. I wonder what kind of laws the Swiss have in that regard? Might be more
effective than banning ammo.

What the hell is the Swiss militia system going to do with 50 rounds per man? They might as well have taken the ammo away already for all the good that will do in an emergency.

I suppose they would do what most of us did in Iraq --go to where the ammo
is when SHTF.
 
Saw this on the BBC website this morning-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1566715.stm

Switzerland and the gun

Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.

The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.

This is in a very large part due to Switzerland's unique system of national defence, developed over the centuries.

Instead of a standing, full-time army, the country requires every man to undergo some form of military training for a few days or weeks a year throughout most of their lives.

Between the ages of 21 and 32 men serve as frontline troops. They are given an M-57 assault rifle and 24 rounds of ammunition which they are required to keep at home.

Once discharged, men serve in the Swiss equivalent of the US National Guard, but still have to train occasionally and are given bolt rifles. Women do not have to own firearms, but are encouraged to.

Few restrictions

In addition to the government-provided arms, there are few restrictions on buying weapons. Some cantons restrict the carrying of firearms - others do not.

The government even sells off surplus weaponry to the general public when new equipment is introduced.

Guns and shooting are popular national pastimes. More than 200,000 Swiss attend national annual marksmanship competitions.

But despite the wide ownership and availability of guns, violent crime is extremely rare. There are only minimal controls at public buildings and politicians rarely have police protection.

Mark Eisenecker, a sociologist from the University of Zurich told BBC News Online that guns are "anchored" in Swiss society and that gun control is simply not an issue.

Some pro-gun groups argue that Switzerland proves their contention that there is not necessarily a link between the availability of guns and violent crime in society.

Low crime

But other commentators suggest that the reality is more complicated.

Switzerland is one of the world's richest countries, but has remained relatively isolated.

It has none of the social problems associated with gun crime seen in other industrialised countries like drugs or urban deprivation.

Despite the lack of rigid gun laws, firearms are strictly connected to a sense of collective responsibility.

From an early age Swiss men and women associate weaponry with being called to defend their country.
 
Switzerland is one of the world's richest countries, but has remained relatively isolated.
So let's take away Switzerlands riches, disarm them, turn them into Euroweenies and force them to comply with the "world view"! You know, for their own good!
 
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