Swiss await showdown over guns and bullets

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Desertdog

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Swiss await showdown over guns and bullets
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/...l?siteSect=105&sid=7941744&cKey=1182262486000

Switzerland is preparing for a lively debate this summer over its long-standing tradition of keeping army guns and ammunition at home.

Opposition to its guns-at-home culture seems to have gained momentum and critics are launching a people's initiative on the issue.


Attitudes towards firearms may be changing in Switzerland, which is well known for its militia army, strong traditions and liberal gun laws. A recent survey found that two out of three Swiss want to ban army weapons from private households.



Centre-left political parties and pacifist groups are hoping to build on these signs of public disapproval to force a nationwide vote. They are due to start collecting signatures for a people's initiative from August this year.



The initiative is calling for army weapons to remain in the barracks, a national gun register, a ban on private individuals buying or owning particularly dangerous guns such as automatic weapons or pump-action shotguns, and tighter controls on those who say they need to carry a firearm.



Green parliamentarian Jo Lang, who is behind the proposal, argues that keeping an army gun at home is "a major security risk" and that "there are no practical arguments - only ideological ones".



"Every year about 300 people die from army-issue guns in Switzerland. The majority of cases are suicides, but there are also family tragedies," he told swissinfo.



Lang has first-hand experience of the dangers of putting a gun in the wrong hands. In 2001 he was in Zug's cantonal parliament when a gunman shot and killed 14 people with a rifle, before turning it on himself.



"Most people have a gun not because they like it, but because they have to take it home," he said.


Social problem

Under Swiss law all able-bodied men are issued with a rifle and 50 rounds of ammunition, which they store at home after completing basic training and can keep after finishing their military service.



No one knows exactly how many guns are in Switzerland - estimates range from 1.2 to 20 million – partly as the tradition of keeping army guns dates back to the 19th century.



Gun advocates argue that tighter controls would go against age-old Swiss custom, would not stop crime and would not have prevented massacres like the one in Zug.



"Every misuse of a weapon is not the fault of the weapon – it's the person behind it; it's a problem of society," said Hermann Suter of the pro-gun lobby group, Pro Tell. "The strategic goal of the initiative is the abolition of the militia army over the next 20 years."



But for Jean-Pierre Monti, president of the federal police staff association, a vote could have a positive impact: "It is not going to stop suicides or criminal acts, but it could limit them."


They're trying to pull the rug out from under our feet as they know our text could be accepted.



Jo Lang, Green parliamentarian behind initiative

Heading them off...

Ahead of the launch of the initiative, the Senate on Wednesday debated and rejected an outright ban on storing army weapons at home. But it did pass a motion which would prevent most soldiers from keeping their ammunition in the home.



The government had earlier come out in favour of a plan to allow only certain troops to take their guns and ammunition home.



"They're trying to pull the rug out from under our feet as they know our text could be accepted by the people," said Lang, who remains defiant that the initiative will not be withdrawn.



The Green parliamentarian expects tough discussions over the weeks and months to come, particularly in parliament, which is "dominated by men over 60... hardcore army lobbyists".



"In Switzerland there was an old saying: 'A man who can't defend himself and his family with a weapon has no honour.' This tradition still exists in certain circles," said Lang. "And they understand an attack on this tradition as an attack on the army itself."


Sharp end

So what do those at the sharp end – the soldiers themselves – actually think?



"I don't see any need to keep weapons at home, but leaving weapons in warehouses will require a lot of money to build up a new system," said Florian Emonet, an army shooting instructor.



"Keeping a gun at home is a reminder of the Cold War, and is not necessary for instruction or security purposes."



So what are the practical arguments for keeping a gun at home?



"The need for instruction so that people can train. But we know that no one is doing it seriously apart from during annual obligatory shooting practice. Most don't shoot with their guns, they just store them somewhere. I'm sure in a few years there will be no more guns at home and things will change."



swissinfo, Simon Bradley
 
Wow, that's a really sad story. :( I envy the current Swiss firearms culture in a lot of respects. It's a shame there are illogical gun-grabbers in every country on Earth. :mad::cuss:
 
If they do it, they'll regret it when Europe's next decent into madness happens, and their neighbors AREN'T afraid to invade. Let's see, at the present pace that's due sometime around 2015-2020...
 
The change agents have been busy in Switzerland. Since the resolve of the Swiss government has been eroded with extreme pressure - political propaganda, misfounded accusations over the last decade or so and economically - the change agents are now deeply entrenched and have fertile ground to plow.

The object is the same as that of the change agents in this country; the dismantling of everything distinctly Swiss that is out of sync with the homogenization of europa and the rest of the world.

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http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
I've always believed that the greatest way to deter an invasion is an armed populous. Being that the Swiss are surrounded by much bigger and possibly badder nations, having a gun in every home is worth 300 deaths a year. Especially considering the history of their neighbors.
 
The Swiss are going to adopt the flag that is currently flown by all the other EU nations, the white flag!
 
I see no reason to force gun ownership on people, I think leaving it up to the individual is the best way to deal with it.

"In Switzerland there was an old saying: 'A man who can't defend himself and his family with a weapon has no honour.' This tradition still exists in certain circles," said Lang. "And they understand an attack on this tradition as an attack on the army itself."
Wait.... didn't Ghandi say something like that once?
 
'A man who can't defend himself and his family with a weapon has no honour.'

The fact the the interviewed gun-grabber seems to hold contempt for such a civil and reasonable concept, speaks volumes about the "honor" of gun-grabbers.
 
Some interesting things here.

1. The gun control articles are written exactly the same as they are over here. All the elements are there: flaccid comments from the "pro-gun" side that miss the important reasons, and a note that anti-gun groups except "strong opposition to their plan" despite support from a clueless public, which always implies that the groups are fighting the good fight against those darn entrenched interests.

2. Mannix made an anarcho-capitalist comment about leaving gun ownership up to the individual, although a minarchist type might think this is an effective and efficient way for a nation to defend itself without an expensive military. It's an interesting debate, but I'm sure the Internet flamers have battled over it many times before.

3. The proponents of these ideas will never be held accountable if the unintended consequences come back to bite them. If Switzerland gets invaded because its citizens lack practice with military style weapons, the Green parliamentarians will be long gone or will complain that it was due to some other reason (like they were not in power to do everything correctly). It's just like the VT spokesman Larry Hincker bragging about restricting lawful gun use on campus before the shooting tragedy. The blame just shifts elsewhere while the anti-gun groups are too afraid to examine their own world view.
 
I see no reason to force gun ownership on people, I think leaving it up to the individual is the best way to deal with it.

They are not "individuals" and they are not "forced."

They are "soldiers" under "orders."

When discharged, they may turn in the weapon or keep it.

It's funny that we're told "most" don't want to have weapons, when in fact, "most" DO keep their weapons.

So, 300 deaths a year, times the last decade or so (Because the 1988 murder count in Switzerland, IIRC was _9_) = 3000.

Now, how many Belgians and Austrians did Hitler kill?

Hmmm....

And very telling is this:
But for Jean-Pierre Monti, president of the federal police staff association, a vote could have a positive impact: "It is not going to stop suicides or criminal acts, but it could limit them."

"Ja, it's never vorked anyvere before, but vat da heck? Can't hurt to try it yet again. Thousandth time a charm, eh?"

Moron.
 
Nah, Monti is more of just a liberal type with a static view of the world. They propose one change and expect everything else to remain the same. The potential unintended consequences of invasion or increased personal death due to lack of defense weapons don't even enter their minds.
 
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