Chasing the perfect .38 Special for a rifle.

[Mr_Flintstone]

For about a year now I’ve been pondering the best 38 Special hand loads for my Henry rifle that is still SAAMI spec. I’ve always been of the opinion that a slow magnum powder should give me a big boost in velocity in the rifle, but have not found much in the way of load data for magnum powders. My first thought was Alliant 2400, but I’m out, and it is fairly unobtainable right now. I also thought about H110, but it seems that there is little to no data published for 38 Special in that powder. But yesterday, I was thumbing through my old Hodgdon #25, and I found some interesting data for H-4227. Well, that powder isn’t around anymore, but a quick call to Hodgdon, and they tell me I can interchange data as long as I work up my loads. Anyway, they listed a 14.0 gr load with a 125 gr jacketed bullet showing 1277 FPS/18,900 CUP, 13.6 gr with a 140 gr jacketed at 1198 FPS/19,900 CUP, and 12.5 gr with a 158 gr jacketed bullet at 1052 FPS/20,600 CUP. The data didn’t state what barrel length.

I thought that I should get a big boost from a 20” barrel, so I ran some simulations on Gordon’s Reloading Tool and got 1650 FPS, 1610 FPS, and 1497 FPS for 125, 140, and 158 respectively. I thought that would be amazing, so I loaded some test loads while I was waiting for the remnants of the hurricane to pass. When it cleared, I chronographed the loads and was somewhat disappointed, but still encouraged. For the 158 gr bullets I got an average velocity of 1133 FPS with a SD of 22, the 140 gr bullets had an average velocity of 1298 FPS with a SD of 34, and the 125 gr bullets averaged 1249 with a SD of 24. While these were nowhere near the expected velocities, they were still respectable with the 140 gr bullets at over 500 ft-lbs.

At some point in the future when I find some 2400 powder and some H110 data, I’m going to test some more.

 

[mcb]

Is your rifle an actual 38 Special chamber or a 357 Magnum? If its 357 Magnum why not use 357 Magnum brass and data?

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Is your rifle an actual 38 Special chamber or a 357 Magnum? If its 357 Magnum why not use 357 Magnum brass and data?

I should have expected someone asking that, but that was quick. There are a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the sparse availability of .357 magnum brass. If I had to pin it down though, it’s just personal. I just want to know what actual .38 Special is capable of achieving.

 

[mcb]

I should have expected someone asking that, but that was quick. There are a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the sparse availability of .357 magnum brass. If I had to pin it down though, it’s just personal. I just want to know what actual .38 Special is capable of achieving.

If your comfortable with GRT why not just work up some 38 Special loads using H110 from scratch. Your gun can easily handle 357 Mag pressure so you have some cushion if you over do the pressures of 38 Special a touch. From my working with my 44 Mag Rifle H110 is a great powder for carbines. You could start with published 357 Mag data to make sure GRT agrees with the published data. Then short the over all length to 38 Special and back down the powder charge to what ever pressure you are comfortable with. Then move over and replicate that in a 38 Special case in GRT just to double check it. Then load a small batch and head to the range to confirm it over your chronograph. Certainly there are some risks in doing this and I would not do it unless you are very comfortable and trust the software and your reloading skills. I have done similar with Quickloads but I fully knew the risks I was taking when I worked up loads from scratch.

 

[brewer12345]

I don't shoot much hot stuff in my 357 rifle. If I want power,I can pull something else out of the safe. More interesting to me is a very accurate 38 load. I fiddled around with a bunch of things and eventually found a cast load with a 133 grain bullet and hp38 that is more accurate than my eyesight allows. Easily good enough for a headshot on a swimming muskrat at 35 yards.

 

[kidneyboy]

You might want to take a look at Power Pistol data for 38 +P.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

The Lyman 358156 cast bullet, and the many copies thereof, was designed to use 38 Spl brass to make a 357 load.

It has 2 crimp grooves. The lower groove, closest to the base, will extend the bullet out, and give you the capacity of a 357 brass in a 38 case.

Just something to consider.

Also, consider using HS-6 powder for your heavy 38 Spl loads. Sort of a midrange burn, could be what you want.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I don't shoot much hot stuff in my 357 rifle. If I want power,I can pull something else out of the safe. More interesting to me is a very accurate 38 load. I fiddled around with a bunch of things and eventually found a cast load with a 133 grain bullet and hp38 that is more accurate than my eyesight allows. Easily good enough for a headshot on a swimming muskrat at 35 yards.

Probably the most accurate load of anything I’ve shot from my Henry is a 158 gr coated bullet with either 10.0 gr IMR 4227 or 7.0 gr 2400. Both leave a ragged hole at 50 ft.

 

[brewer12345]

Yeah. In 357 I found the most accurate hot load to be a 158 grain jsp over a bunch of lil gun. That might not be a forgiving enough powder to fool with in 38.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I don't shoot much hot stuff in my 357 rifle. If I want power,I can pull something else out of the safe. More interesting to me is a very accurate 38 load. I fiddled around with a bunch of things and eventually found a cast load with a 133 grain bullet and hp38 that is more accurate than my eyesight allows. Easily good enough for a headshot on a swimming muskrat at 35 yards.

If you don't want hot. Then just use a powder that's workable at 38 spl pressure.
If you want power. Then your idea of h110 will give you power. Calculate your seating depth and fill the case to 100% capacity. You will be at 357 Magnum pressures though.
If you want a powerful 38 pressure load. There is data for cast 170s and Blue Dot.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

If your comfortable with GRT why not just work up some 38 Special loads using H110 from scratch. Your gun can easily handle 357 Mag pressure so you have some cushion if you over do the pressures of 38 Special a touch. From my working with my 44 Mag Rifle H110 is a great powder for carbines. You could start with published 357 Mag data to make sure GRT agrees with the published data. Then short the over all length to 38 Special and back down the powder charge to what ever pressure you are comfortable with. Then move over and replicate that in a 38 Special case in GRT just to double check it. Then load a small batch and head to the range to confirm it over your chronograph. Certainly there are some risks in doing this and I would not do it unless you are very comfortable and trust the software and your reloading skills. I have done similar with Quickloads but I fully knew the risks I was taking when I worked up loads from scratch.

GRT shows an estimated load within about a tenth of a grain of the IMR 4227 load, but projects about 100 FPS faster at about 19,900 PSI. I put in the minimum load of H110 from Hodgdon, and the velocity was about 15 FPS off. The pressure from Hodgdon was in CUP, so it was hard to compare, but GRT showed about 27,000 PSI and Hodgdon showed 28,400 CUP; both around the low end of .357 Mag pressure. From there, I changed the parameters to match my brass and bullets, and came up with 13.5 gr H110. I’m going to do a little more digging to see if I can find .38 Special data for H110 before I load any up.

 

[mcb]

GRT shows an estimated load within about a tenth of a grain of the IMR 4227 load, but projects about 100 FPS faster at about 19,900 PSI. I put in the minimum load of H110 from Hodgdon, and the velocity was about 15 FPS off. The pressure from Hodgdon was in CUP, so it was hard to compare, but GRT showed about 27,000 PSI and Hodgdon showed 28,400 CUP; both around the low end of .357 Mag pressure. From there, I changed the parameters to match my brass and bullets, and came up with 13.5 gr H110. I’m going to do a little more digging to see if I can find .38 Special data for H110 before I load any up.

Nice work up in GRT. Those number sound about right. The software is good but far from a perfect prediction. Doing more research is always a good idea. The few times I have gone off the reservation with a load from scratch I did tons of research so that I was as comfortable with my workup as I could be before putting powder in case.

 

[Random 8]

I've run HS-6 and Power pistol right up to and past the red line in .38 spl brass in my Henry Single shot. I found both economical and powerful enough to satisfy my needs of having a "close" analog to full power .357 hunting loads for a youth shooter to practice with. POI was close enough for govt work to 50 yards to the full power load. I don't have a chronograph, but they were certainly snappy. If you're looking for .38+P spec loads, there is listed data.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

The problem with using H110 is that it doesn't burn well at lower pressure.

H110 doesn't burn clean until well above 38 Spl Saami pressures, even above +P pressures.

To get it to burn in a reliable manner, the pressure needs to be above 25k psi, 30k is better. This is why you see the warnings to not download it.

I'm not saying it can't be used in 38 Special, I'm saying that at 15k-20k psi, you run a very real risk of unreliable burning, and secondary ignition.

Be very careful here.

 

[MEHavey]

Since you're shooting in a 357-rated action, step up to a heavier bullet and
use Wűnderpowder to get the most out of the req'd 38 Special case.


WARNING: The loading above is unpublished, and exceeds published 38Special loadings

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have a Handi-Rifle Survivor model reamed to .357Max. I shoot everything from light 90grain LCN .38Spl through heavy 210gr. WLFN-GC .357Max through. The one thing I have learned to avoid is jacketed bullets made for the .35Rem/Whelen. .358" in jacketed through the Max. chamber is bad for brass life - cracked necks.

Use the old Lyman's 195gr. #2 Alloy lead data. It worked for me using CP 200gr. WFN-GC in the .38Spl cases for the Handi-Rifle. There is data for both 2400 and IMR 4227.


A 195-200gr. WFN moving at anything close to 900fps (and, in the H-R, I'm getting closer to 1000fps with 4227) is one heck of a THWACK! and very accurate inside of 75 yards. Past 75... well, some Kentucky windage might be called for. Oh, and I HIGHLY recommend using Small Rifle primers! Even in the .38 case; but standard, not magnum.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Since you're shooting in a 357-rated action, step up to a heavier bullet and
use Wűnderpowder to get the most out of the req'd 38 Special case.
View attachment 1022642

WARNING: The loading above is unpublished, and exceeds published 38Special loadings

I like this one, too:

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I went back and scrounged some 38 Special H110 data, but none of it showed pressure data, so I had to go with my GRT simulations. I thought maybe I should go with the 158 gr bullets, so I re-ran everything. (Just a side note, I used Win 296, and included that in my simulations, but it gave the same output as H110.). It showed that a charge of 12.1 gr Win 296 would create 19,837 PSI, so I used that charge. I figured it would be OK in the Henry even if it was a little stout. I used 158 gr XTP bullets with a heavy crimp and a magnum primer, and got an average velocity of 1260.3 FPS, and a SD of 12.7. I only did 5 test rounds, but two were duplicates at 1253 FPS. That gives 556 ft-lb energy at the muzzle, and should still retain about 1025 FPS and 370 ft-lb at 100 yards. Not too shabby for 38 Special +P. I believe I could back it down a tenth or two and still be at 1200+ fps.

On a side note, it shows that you would only get about 670 fps from a 2” barrel, so the longer barrel is pretty much a necessity with this load.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO using magnum class powders in .38 Special brass is not advisable. Those powers are too slow and the pressures generated will surpass SAAMI limits.

If it were me, and it has been, I would load a 158gr LSWC cast bullet over 7.0gr HS-6 using a magnum primer. You will like the velocity and accuracy. They are great rounds in my Marlin .357 Magnum levergun. I highly recommend it and BTW, it's also my FBI Load replica.

God luck...

 

[cfullgraf]

IMO using magnum class powders in .38 Special brass is not advisable. Those powers are too slow and the pressures generated will surpass SAAMI limits.

I agree.

For Mr_Flintstone

My Marlin 1894C is really never happy when fed 38 Special cases but that may be in part that I load lots of semi-wadcutter ammunition and the bullet shoulder tends to get hung up on something while feeding.

So, I've pretty much stuck with ammunition loaded in 357 Magnum cases. And this includes my Miroku/Winchester 1873. (My Miroku/ Winchester 1873 is fairly new and I've never tried any 38 Special cased ammunition in it).

I do understand if you are flush with 38 Special cases and are short of 357 Magnum cases. Times will get better and it will be time to stock up.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Here is a great bullet by the Missouri Bullet Company for use in your levergun. I have used them and I like the results. They are specifically made for tubular magazines.

Cast bullets:
https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=110&category=6&secondary=35&keywords=

Hi-Tek coated bullets:
https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=333&category=6&secondary=36&keywords=

 

[buck460XVR]

There are a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the sparse availability of .357 magnum brass. If I had to pin it down though, it’s just personal. I just want to know what actual .38 Special is capable of achieving.

Around here, it's always been the opposite. .357 brass has always been more available. Maybe with the recent shortage and the popularity of .357, this has changed. Seems any component is hard to come by these days. As for a personal goal, I understand....but it seems, you are not seeking what an actual .38 special is capable of, but what a .357 load in a .38 special case is capable of. The potential is with the firearm, not the case. JMTCs.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

A little more about my quest…. Part of my reason for chasing .38 Special performance, and perhaps the biggest is my desire to buy either a Uberti or Winchester 1866 Yellowboy lever action. I know that may not make sense to some since they are .38 Special only (and I already have a .357 Magnum) but for some reason I want one. I was all set to buy one when the pandemic hit, and if they are still available after this is all over I still intend to buy one. In the mean time, my Henry has been doing stand-in duty in preparation of when I do get a chance to buy one; hence the reason for wanting the load to still be SAAMI spec.

I guess I should have taken a little time up front an explained that, and what I’m trying to do may have made more sense to everyone. I guess sometimes when something makes sense in my mind I leave out details. Anyway, with times the way they are, I have way more .38 Special cases than .357 Magnum, and I thought it to be the perfect time to experiment without too much fear of over pressure loads.

Thanks to all who have posted, and if anyone has questions, comments, or even rude remarks, please post them here. In the mean time, I’ll continue to experiment in anticipation of when I buy an 1866.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

...or even rude remarks...

Hey ! I resemble that remark !

 

[Docendo Discimus]

Here is a great bullet by the Missouri Bullet Company for use in your levergun. I have used them and I like the results. They are specifically made for tubular magazines.

Cast bullets:
https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=110&category=6&secondary=35&keywords=

Hi-Tek coated bullets:
https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=333&category=6&secondary=36&keywords=

How fast have you run these out a rifle length barrel? They look very nice and I might like to try them.