Chasing the perfect .38 Special for a rifle.

[bluejay75]

The heavier the better BUT similar in velocity to the standard 22lr. 12-1300 FPS. I see my cast 38 special rifle loads as 22lr replacement as I came into 3 buckets of brass and spec’d out molds that dropped and coated up to .358 without sizing. 5.5 grains of Unique, 6.5 grains HS6 and a 185-200 grain cast bullet is perfect for this duty. The Unique load is ragged hole accurate and will kill from sparrow to deer at 1250 FPS.

I have run 16 grains 300MP, 12.5 of 2400 in 38 special brass and get 1500-1600 FPS. I have both loads built in abundance. They are at 357 length so no chance of mixing them up. I have split a handful of cases out of the thousands I have shot and the only time I ran into pressure was with Unique. Won’t post the load because it will pierce primers in rifle but that same load shoots without pressure from a pistol and is my most accurate pistol load. I only use SRPs in those loads for pistol and rifle. Use mag primers with HS6 if you’re skeptical about using rifle primers.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Here is a great bullet by the Missouri Bullet Company for use in your levergun. I have used them and I like the results. They are specifically made for tubular magazines.

Cast bullets:
https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=110&category=6&secondary=35&keywords=

Hi-Tek coated bullets:
https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=333&category=6&secondary=36&keywords=

I have run those in .357 at about 1500 FPS, and never had an issue. When I last checked there was a 2 month wait to get more so I ordered the Acme version… same bullet, maybe a little different coating, but they ran just the same. I’ll have to order some more if the wait isn’t too long.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

A little more about my quest…. Part of my reason for chasing .38 Special performance, and perhaps the biggest is my desire to buy either a Uberti or Winchester 1866 Yellowboy lever action. I know that may not make sense to some since they are .38 Special only (and I already have a .357 Magnum) but for some reason I want one. I was all set to buy one when the pandemic hit, and if they are still available after this is all over I still intend to buy one. In the mean time, my Henry has been doing stand-in duty in preparation of when I do get a chance to buy one; hence the reason for wanting the load to still be SAAMI spec.

I guess I should have taken a little time up front an explained that, and what I’m trying to do may have made more sense to everyone. I guess sometimes when something makes sense in my mind I leave out details. Anyway, with times the way they are, I have way more .38 Special cases than .357 Magnum, and I thought it to be the perfect time to experiment without too much fear of over pressure loads.

Thanks to all who have posted, and if anyone has questions, comments, or even rude remarks, please post them here. In the mean time, I’ll continue to experiment in anticipation of when I buy an 1866.

It made more sense before you explained...

I think what you're really looking for is what used to be known as .38-44 or .38 Super Police Special loading data for long barrel, large frame revolvers - essentially the same thing as a short-barrel carbine like the Yellow Boy. The Italian carbines are proofed to European CIP spec's, not SAAMI, so you might want to become familiar with the CIP .38Spl before starting load development. JMHO.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

It made more sense before you explained...

I think what you're really looking for is what used to be known as .38-44 or .38 Super Police Special loading data for long barrel, large frame revolvers - essentially the same thing as a short-barrel carbine like the Yellow Boy. The Italian carbines are proofed to European CIP spec's, not SAAMI, so you might want to become familiar with the CIP .38Spl before starting load development. JMHO.

I’m not looking for 38/44 level loads. I tinkered with those a while back. Elmer Keith’s loads are essentially .357 magnum in a .38 Special case. The original load was a 174 gr Lyman #358429 loaded with 11 gr 2400 at about 32,000 PSI, and there are others that pushed this up to around 13 gr with the bullet seated to the bottom crimp groove. That load is probably in excess of 40,000 psi.

What I’m looking for is a load that will make the most of the 1866’s 24” barrel. My Henry only has a 20” barrel, but close enough for testing. Loaded at (CIP) 21,750 PSI, I could squeeze a little more from the cartridge, but I really want to stick with a load that is SAAMI safe (20,000 PSI) +P just in case it ever got put into a .38 Special revolver.

Basically I’m just looking for a powder and bullet combo that gives the biggest velocity/energy for the long rifle length barrel. I know any 38 Special load will work, but fast powders burn out too quickly, and don’t produce a big enough volume of gas to push for an extended period down the barrel. Coated bullets will probably produce the best results, but I decided to start with jacketed.

 

[KY DAN]

I will be shirt and to the point load the 38 special to its full potential, I did not say MAGNUM because that is why the 357 mag exist.

I only load full bore 38 special use 158 grain lead bullets.

4.2 grains w23q
5 grains unique
7.2 grains hs-6

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I will be shirt and to the point load the 38 special to its full potential, I did not say MAGNUM because that is why the 357 mag exist.

I only load full bore 38 special use 158 grain lead bullets.

4.2 grains w23q
5 grains unique
7.2 grains hs-6

What do you get from those HS6 loads? The reason I ask is that I’ve never used it, but have been tempted to get some.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I think I may have hit the sweet spot. I will need to do further testing, and I’d like to get someone with Quickload to double check me, but I got a chronographed average velocity of 1436 FPS/641 ft-lb with a SD of 28 with a Sierra #8325 140 gr Hollow Point bullet loaded over 13.4 gr Win 296. Case length was 1.145”, case volume was 23.7 gr H2O, COL was 1.445” with a heavy crimp, and I used a magnum primer. According to GRT this should produce 19,372 PSI. I worry that the simulation may be on the low side pressure wise, so I wouldn’t be opposed to lowering the charge a bit.

 

[KY DAN]

Depending on barrel length i could get a chrono to read 800ish to high 900's fps.

 

[KY DAN]

What do you get from those HS6 loads? The reason I ask is that I’ve never used it, but have been tempted to get some.

Depending on barrel length i could get a chrono to read 800ish to high 900's fps.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I think I may have hit the sweet spot. I will need to do further testing, and I’d like to get someone with Quickload to double check me, but I got a chronographed average velocity of 1436 FPS/641 ft-lb with a SD of 28 with a Sierra #8325 140 gr Hollow Point bullet loaded over 13.4 gr Win 296. Case length was 1.145”, case volume was 23.7 gr H2O, COL was 1.445” with a heavy crimp, and I used a magnum primer. According to GRT this should produce 19,372 PSI. I worry that the simulation may be on the low side pressure wise, so I wouldn’t be opposed to lowering the charge a bit.

You do know you are playing with fire using h110/296. It absolutely doesn't work well at reduced pressures. One day the temp will be low and it will do the bad things it's known for.

Move to autocomp, Blue Dot, 2400, or 800x with a158 or 170 gr bullet if you're trying to get a little more gas.
I ran 180s with blue dot at 950 ish from a 4" barrel. It was a load posted in an old manual.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

You do know you are playing with fire using h110/296. It absolutely doesn't work well at reduced pressures. One day the temp will be low and it will do the bad things it's known for.

Move to autocomp, Blue Dot, 2400, or 800x with a158 or 170 gr bullet if you're trying to get a little more gas.
I ran 180s with blue dot at 950 ish from a 4" barrel. It was a load posted in an old manual.

I plan to try AutoComp and Unique tomorrow. Maybe even Bullseye too. 2400, Blue Dot, and 800x are not available anywhere right now. I plan to try them when I can find them.

 

[buck460XVR]

A little more about my quest…. Part of my reason for chasing .38 Special performance, and perhaps the biggest is my desire to buy either a Uberti or Winchester 1866 Yellowboy lever action. I know that may not make sense to some since they are .38 Special only (and I already have a .357 Magnum) but for some reason I want one.

Makes sense to me. I've always wanted a Colt "Lightning". When Uberti came out with their reproduction in .357 I was ready to jump on it like a fly on a cow pie. Then came the reports of the issue with the loading gate and jammed shells in the tube feed. Anyway, the .38 Special is a viable cartridge and for a plinking/small game carbine, a Yellowboy lever in that caliber would be a fun gun. I would assume it would also be acceptable for cowboy action type shooting. It is one caliber that has had the snot reloaded out of it over the years and performance from it is pretty well known and well published. It's performance, because of the firearms designed for it, are limited. It's limitations are what brought about it's big sister the .357 mag. While every gun is an entity of it's own, I would assume, if you desire to stay within those limitations, published loads abound at the upper end of it's parameters. If you are having a hard time finding recipes for velocities higher than most or using powders not really appropriate for .38, it's not because it ain't been tried, but because it didn't work well. Using a magnum type powder in a low pressure caliber like .38 special is not going to make it a magnum, with .38 pressure. For the most part, the slow burning magnum type powders need a full or near full case to ignite consistently and give consistent performance. They won't give you more velocity without giving you more pressure. While magnum powders like 2400 and IMR4227 can be downloaded safely to .38 special pressures, from my experience, they are not as accurate or as consistent, while giving similar velocities as faster burning powders, more appropriate for .38. I love me some IMR4227(by the way, IMR4227 is just H4227 renamed....that's why you can interchange data). It is an relatively expensive powder that needs a lot of powder to perform. I love it in my .44 mag carbines and my .460 revolver. It doesn't really shine till you get close to a full case. Even with a full case in .357, it doesn't seem to perform near as well as other magnum powders....I always figured it was because the .357 case itself didn't hold enough. From my experience, you cannot get enough IMR4227 under a bullet in any magnum handgun caliber, under a standard for caliber or heavier bullet, to create an unsafe load. It likes to be compressed or nearly compressed. Download it much and you will end up with big chunks of unburnt/semi-burnt powder falling out of the gun and have dismal performance. The velocities you give for IMR4227 under a 140 and 158 gr bullet are over SAAMI max CUP pressure for .38 special, you are getting more into the +p range.

That said, it's always fun to play around. But in these times of shortages, playing around means using primers that are as abundant as hen's teeth. If I was to "play around" with something it would be with a powder more appropriate for the caliber. My experience is, in .38 special with standard for caliber weight jacketed bullets, Power Pistol and AA#5 give me the similar velocities as 2400, but with half the powder used.....still, good ol' Unique gives me the best accuracy. With lead, my limited experience is the same
..

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Makes sense to me. I've always wanted a Colt "Lightning". When Uberti came out with their reproduction in .357 I was ready to jump on it like a fly on a cow pie. Then came the reports of the issue with the loading gate and jammed shells in the tube feed. Anyway, the .38 Special is a viable cartridge and for a plinking/small game carbine, a Yellowboy lever in that caliber would be a fun gun. I would assume it would also be acceptable for cowboy action type shooting. It is one caliber that has had the snot reloaded out of it over the years and performance from it is pretty well known and well published. It's performance, because of the firearms designed for it, are limited. It's limitations are what brought about it's big sister the .357 mag. While every gun is an entity of it's own, I would assume, if you desire to stay within those limitations, published loads abound at the upper end of it's parameters. If you are having a hard time finding recipes for velocities higher than most or using powders not really appropriate for .38, it's not because it ain't been tried, but because it didn't work well. Using a magnum type powder in a low pressure caliber like .38 special is not going to make it a magnum, with .38 pressure. For the most part, the slow burning magnum type powders need a full or near full case to ignite consistently and give consistent performance. They won't give you more velocity without giving you more pressure. While magnum powders like 2400 and IMR4227 can be downloaded safely to .38 special pressures, from my experience, they are not as accurate or as consistent, while giving similar velocities as faster burning powders, more appropriate for .38. I love me some IMR4227(by the way, IMR4227 is just H4227 renamed....that's why you can interchange data). It is an relatively expensive powder that needs a lot of powder to perform. I love it in my .44 mag carbines and my .460 revolver. It doesn't really shine till you get close to a full case. Even with a full case in .357, it doesn't seem to perform near as well as other magnum powders....I always figured it was because the .357 case itself didn't hold enough. From my experience, you cannot get enough IMR4227 under a bullet in any magnum handgun caliber, under a standard for caliber or heavier bullet, to create an unsafe load. It likes to be compressed or nearly compressed. Download it much and you will end up with big chunks of unburnt/semi-burnt powder falling out of the gun and have dismal performance. The velocities you give for IMR4227 under a 140 and 158 gr bullet are over SAAMI max CUP pressure for .38 special, you are getting more into the +p range.

That said, it's always fun to play around. But in these times of shortages, playing around means using primers that are as abundant as hen's teeth. If I was to "play around" with something it would be with a powder more appropriate for the caliber. My experience is, in .38 special with standard for caliber weight jacketed bullets, Power Pistol and AA#5 give me the similar velocities as 2400, but with half the powder used.....still, good ol' Unique gives me the best accuracy. With lead, my limited experience is the same
..

I agree with everything you said except IMR 4227 not being consistent when downloaded. One of the most accurate handgun or pistol caliber rifle cartridges that I’ve shot is .38 special with 158 gr cast or coated with 10 grains of IMR 4227. Granted, when shooting it from a 2” snubby, it goes all over the place, but it’s dead on from a 4”+ barrel, and ragged hole accurate from my Henry.

 

[cfullgraf]

I have been shooting 38 specials in a Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum since I bought it in 1970....that's 48 years of shooting. When I get in from range gun gets cleaned, rod, brush and patch or bore snake pull through. Ed's Red Bore Cleaner.
I just examined the cylinders...guess what...no problems, they are clean and as smooth as when new.
If you clean it you will have no built up lead deposits,
That horse pucky about not shooting 38 specials in 357 magnum is horse pucky...48 years of doing it is proof positive...but you gotta clean the gun !

Yep, you are right. In my early days of shooting, I put a pallet load of 38 Special ammunition through my 357 Magnum handguns. You just have to keep the chambers cleaned after a shooting session.

But, there is something special about shooting 38 Special ammunition in a gun chambered for 38 Special.

Since I have acquired a number of 38 Special revolvers, I save my 38 Special cases for them and load only 357 Magnum cased ammunition in my 357 Magnum guns.

Ditto for 44 Special/Magnum guns and 32 S&WL/32 H&R Mag/327 Fed Mag guns.

Assuming one is a reloader and with companies like Starline, and under normal circumstances, one can buy the cases appropriate for what the gun is chambered for.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I plan to try AutoComp and Unique tomorrow. Maybe even Bullseye too. 2400, Blue Dot, and 800x are not available anywhere right now. I plan to try them when I can find them.

Autocomp surprised me in 7.62x38 Nagant and light bullet 357 loads.
It's definitely a good candidate for 38+P.
Bullseye won't give you velocity in the long barrel. Save it for you 850-900 plinkers when you get bored of looking for fast 38 special.
You might be interested in the old 38 police 200 grain loads for 38 special. They're unique to say the least.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Autocomp surprised me in 7.62x38 Nagant and light bullet 357 loads.
It's definitely a good candidate for 38+P.
Bullseye won't give you velocity in the long barrel. Save it for you 850-900 plinkers when you get bored of looking for fast 38 special.
You might be interested in the old 38 police 200 grain loads for 38 special. They're unique to say the least.

I’ve tried those in the past. Unique is one way to describe them. They were OK from a 6 inch barrel, but from a snub nose you could actually see the bullet on the way to the target. From a rifle, they made it to a little over 900 fps with 4227.

You’re probably right about Bullseye. I never liked it or Titegroup from a rifle, but never ran it over a chronograph. I love the stuff in a 4” revolver though.

 

[buck460XVR]

I thought that I should get a big boost from a 20” barrel, so I ran some simulations on Gordon’s Reloading Tool and got 1650 FPS, 1610 FPS, and 1497 FPS for 125, 140, and 158 respectively. I thought that would be amazing, so I loaded some test loads while I was waiting for the remnants of the hurricane to pass. When it cleared, I chronographed the loads and was somewhat disappointed, but still encouraged. For the 158 gr bullets I got an average velocity of 1133 FPS with a SD of 22, the 140 gr bullets had an average velocity of 1298 FPS with a SD of 34, and the 125 gr bullets averaged 1249 with a SD of 24. While these were nowhere near the expected velocities, they were still respectable with the 140 gr bullets at over 500 ft-lbs.

I too have been "somewhat disappointed" after chrono'ing loads that were predicted to give "amazing" results. I have also been "pleasantly surprised" when doing the same with loads I thought were "ho-hum" in terms of velocity. Used to be chrono'ing a newly developed(for me) load was the first thing I did. Nowadays, I rarely use my chrono. My first concern in handgun calibers, is accuracy. Since a 50-100 fps means little to nuttin' when it comes to trajectory(I hunt deer with handguns only), where the bullet hits at the distance I feel confident shooting is my primary concern. In fact, I've found over the years that my fastest ammo, is generally not my most accurate. I too have a 20" lever in .357 and love it. when I first started to load for it, I too covered as much of it's realistic parameters as I could to find what worked best for me. I loaded powder puff loads for my grand-children to shoot from it along with the stoutest deer hunting loads I felt were safe. .357, IMHO, is one of the easiest and most forgiving calibers there is to reload for. Recipes and components, during average times are plentiful and relatively inexpensive compared to the other calibers I load. One thing I found very interesting is when doing research into loading .38 specials type loads for it(generally in .357 cases) was that according to BBTI, a 16" barrel generally gave better velocities than my 20". http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I finally had a chance to test AutoComp and Unique today. I was pleasantly surprised. They didn’t have the oomph that the Win 296 did, but more than adequate. I used a 158 gr coated bullet similar to what ArchAngelCD posted from Kimberlin Creek with 5.3 gr each AutoComp and Unique. The AutoComp ran an average of 1175 FPS with an SD of 33. The Unique ran 1143 FPS with an SD of 31. Almost a wash between the two, but the AutoComp was a standard pressure load and the unique was +P. I think this may be my general purpose load if I ever do get an 1866 rifle.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

How fast have you run these out a rifle length barrel? They look very nice and I might like to try them.

Sorry, I can't remember ever sending those bullets over a chrono. I could make a guess but that doesn't help.