Questions about loading .38 Special

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JimGun

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I have just started loading .38s since buying my Ruger LCR.
In my Speer Reloading Manual #13 it states, regarding loading .38 Special, “Lead bullets are best for loading standard pressure .38 Special. . . jacketed bullets create more resistance than lead and can actually stick in the barrel/cylinder. . . to avoid these problems we are showing jacketed bullet data only for 110 and 125 gr. bullets. Note that these loads are marked “DNR” meaning “do not reduce.”
For the 125 gr. JHP bullet they give only one load for WIN. 231 - 5.6 gr. for 944 muzzle velocity.

On the Hodgdon Powders website for .38 Special it gives the following for WIN 231: min. load - 4.3 grs. for 826 muzzle velocity 13,300 CUP
max. load - 4.9 grs. for 944 muzzle velocity 16,300 CUP

Additionally, the Speer Manual states that 17,000 psi is the industry standard for the .38 Special.

Several questions arise.
What is the relation between CUP and PSI?
Since I have started loading .38s for my Ruger LCR which is +P can the powder charge be safely increased? and by how much?
Has the Industry standard pressure changed since 2001?
Is my Speer Manual outdated?
What charges do you others load? and bullets?


Thanks for any information.
 
Manufacturers and reloaders have been making .38Spcl loads with bullet weights up to 158gr for decades. I could see where long barreled .38s might have a problem with a heavy bullet load getting stuck.................but for up to 6" barrels anyway - I've never heard of an issue unless the reload was known to be light or underloaded in the first place. ALL I've ever loaded in .38Spcl is 145 & 158gr bullets for my 2" and 4" revolvers and after a few thousand loads I've never had an issue.

The Standard CUP and PSI standard for .38Spcl chambers have not changed..............but it seems with every passing year the manuals get more and more conservative with their listed powder loads - too many lawyers out there looking for reasons to sue.

There are lots of arguments out there about the impossibility to convert CUP to PSI and vice versa. One paper I read said it was possible - but even his formula had a 3000 PSI error factor.............so it's not a safe bet in my books to try. Stick to published load date and you will be safe.

And yes, a +P load will take more powder for a given bullet than a standard load - how much depends on the powder used...... but again, loading maunals will give you +P load data seperate from the standard load data.
 
The old SAAMI pressure limit for the .38 Special +P was 20,000 PSI and now the limit is 18,500 PSI. The limits were decreased because of all the super light alloy revolvers on the market. The .357 Magnum was lowered to 35,000 PSI from 40,000 PSI too.

While it's basically true when you increase the powder charge the pressures increase most of the times it's not a linear equation. When using a fast powder and attempting to charge above the recommended Max charge many times the pressures will spike creating an unsafe condition. You usually have to switch to a slower powder to achieve the higher velocities you are looking for without pushing the pressure limits too high.

My favorite handgun powders are W231, HS-6 (same as the now discontinued W540) and W296. I use HS-6 when loading most of my .38 Special +P ammo with both Jacketed and lead bullets. I find that powder to be very accurate and fairly low flash in that caliber and it delivers good velocity without producing too much pressure.

Other powders that will produce similar results are Power Pistol, AA#5, SR-7625, Universal and Longshot. (only use Longshot with Jacketed bullets in the .38 Special)
 
What is the relation between CUP and PSI?
There is no direct relationship. PSI is a linear scale while the Copper Crush is a non linear scale.

Since I have started loading .38s for my Ruger LCR which is +P can the powder charge be safely increased? and by how much?

The manuals list loads that are the best in accuracy and that stay consistantly at safe pressure levels. Trying to one up the experts that have a million dollar lab, years of experience and get paid to develop the manuals is just foolishness IMO. Its your gun and your fingers and eyes so risk them if you want. After you've had 30 or 40 years of reloading experience like many of us have, ask yourself this question and more importantly why would you want to.

Has the Industry standard pressure changed since 2001?
I don't believe it has since 2001. Remember that the goal of the manufacturers manuals is not to load to maximum pressure. The goal is to produce loads with the highest velocity that are accurate with stable pressure levels that do not exceed SAAMI standards.

Is my Speer Manual outdated?
As long as you can find loads for the calibers you have with the currently available poweder and bullets of your choice the manual is never out of date. I finally purchased a #13 manual just to update data for new bullets and powders that have come out since I bought my Speer #9 in 1974.

What charges do you others load? and bullets?
I load a lot of Speer 158gr lead bullets in all 3 configurations, LRN, LSWC, and LSWCHP using W231. 4.5grs for general shooting and 4.7grs with LSWCHP's for +P social work.

I also load 125gr JHP's using 6.0grs of Unique for 1,050 FPS+ loads from a 4" revolver.

For strictly paper punching I load 148gr HPWC mostly using 3.1grs of W231 right now but I've used Red Dot, Clays and AA#2 at times.
 
Your Speer manual is not outdated. Follow it and you will be fine. I will buy the Speer #14 one of these days for more updated powder choices, but keep spending the money for it on something else. Between the Speer #13 and all the online data from powder makers, I really don't need it, but will buy it one day. I like the Speer manuals.

I like Clays, AA #2, And N310 for light .38 Loads. W-231 is another very good choice. Unique & AA #5 are a couple of good choices to push it harder.
 
Speer's Reloading Manual #14

My copy lists only 12 loads for 125gr jacketed bullets, none using WIN 231?
 
Interesting. I am pretty sure Speer #13 has W-231 loads listed, but I am not around my manual right now. Nothing wrong with W-231 and 125 Gr bullets, whether lead, plated, or jacketed. Speer over emphazizes the stuck bullet thing to be cautious. Sure, it needs to be watched for with light loads (really light loads) but isn't really a big problem, just something to watch for.

One thing I would suggest would be to use bulky powders such as 700X, Red Dot, American select, etc when loading 125's light. They are more forgiving when the powder is forward in the case and not getting ignited as well. AA #2 is another good one for that because it is pretty insensitive to its position in the case, but prefers heavier bullets and will leave residue at very light pressure.
 
Recently tested some 125 grain XTP-HP's and 6.5 grains of Power Pistol. Shot from my 3" Model 60, yielded a nice consistent 969 fps avg over my Prochrono Digital. Not sure about all the gyrations as it relates to what constitutes +P max pressure at some period of time; but can say my Speer data from 2004 lists 20,000 psi as max for a +P rating.

Power Pistol also makes for damn good +P 158 LSWC ammo in my experience as well.
 
People have been using jacketed bullets in lever action carbines for a long time. I kind of doubt that a jacketed 158gr or similar bullet is going to stick in a typical levergun unless you are using less than starting loads of a very fast powder. There is NO WAY it's going to stick in the cylinder of a functional firearm unless you forgot to put powder in the cartridge.

Now, for a ruger LCR with a 2-3" barrel? Please. Jacketed will be just fine, provided you have powder between the primer and the bullet.

When you start to have trouble with jacketed bullets is when you start using long-barreled rifles with subsonic reduced loads without a chronograph. THAT gets sticky.

Disclaimer: I shoot almost entirely self-poured lead bullets myself.
 
I shoot 2.5 Grains of Bullseye behind a 158 grain Semi- Wadcutter (Missouri bullets) in my K-38 6", my 686 4" and my 638 2" with no problems.
 
Zeke-Which MO bullets are you using? Is it the .38 Match Brinell 12? Been looking for a good load with that bullet that won't lead up the bb.....
 
Rodentman,
I am in fact using the .38 Match Brinell 12 from Missouri.
I load Bullseye for economy sake and my pet load these days is 2.5 Grains of the stuff.
I can get thru a range session or two without any NOTICEABLE leading but before shooting jacketed bullets I do a thorough scrubbing with Hoppes # 9.
I like Missouri bullets as they are certainly more consistant that any of my homecast attempts.
 
"What is the relation between CUP and PSI?"

They both measure relitive differences in chamber pressure. That's as related as they get. There is no possible translation/conversion from one to the other.
 
I appreciate the discussion and the answers given. However, If the Speer manual says for a 125 gr bullet, I should use WIN 231 5.6 gr. With the caution Do not reduce.
Hodgdon Powders, for the same bullet recommends 4.3 to 4.9 gr. WIN231. Am I safe using less than 5.6 or can I use between 4.3 and 4.9 as recommended by Hodgdon? I would be interested in hearing from anybody who uses WIN231 for 125 gr .38 Special.
 
Circa 1994 Winchester data (pre Hodgdon days) shows 4.8-5.3 grains of WW231 and a generic 125 grain JHP. The 5.3 grain charge is listed as +P, and falls below the 18.5k psi +P max of the day. Personally, I would not go below 5 grains, and probably would start at 5.2 grains and see how it goes, especially if you can chronograph the results.
 
JimGun: That largely depends on what you are shooting it out of. Again, if it's the aforementioned LCR, it shouldn't matter worth a damn whether it's 4.3 or 5.6. If you are talking about a long-barreled lever action rifle, it MIGHT be prudent to load at least 5 grains, but I'd still be willing to bet you'd experience no problems with even 4.3 grains. Remember that the load data they publish has to be safe in the entire gamut of standard firearms that will use this cartridge. That means worst-case scenario, with a HUGE dose of lawyer added in for good measure. From that 2" or 3" barrel, if it's going to clear the cylinder, it's going to exit the barrel. The only way that's not going to happen is a bare primer without powder (Ask me how I know! Or better yet, don't. It's embarrassing).
 
May I interject, use the latest loading manual data, not a 10 year old manual. I found this out ALMOST the hard way, loading 9mm, using Accurate Arms #2 years ago, and the old Hornady manual load was listed as middle of the road. It kicked hard, and barked loud. Double checked, no, middle of the road! So I found a new manual, that gave a much smaller amount! So I called Accurate Arms, and they told me that powder was now being made by a differant manufacturer, and the formula had changed - be careful.
 
So I called Accurate Arms, and they told me that powder was now being made by a differant manufacturer,
Click to expand...
Yep. I just hope the 5 pounds of AA #2 I just ordered matches up with what I have been using, cause it is the most position insensitive powder I have ever used in big cases. I have been using some new AA #2, so I think I will be OK. I finally used up all my old #2 I bought over 15 years ago. I bought a new 1 pouder to check it out before buying in bulk.

I have not however, noticed any big difference in performance by weight. I am still using the same data. Powder makers are very careful about matching lot to lot to lot, and do a very good job. They have to for safeties sake. They aren't perfect, but they do a good job.

This just reiterates the old rule of dropping back and rechecking when you change lot numbers of powder. I never bought less than 16 lbs of powder at a time for my bench gun. Once I worked up the load, I did not want to have to fool with changing lot numbers, only tweaking the charge, if needed, for conditions.

Back to the OT:

It would be pretty hard to stick a jacketed bullet in a short barreled .38. Any reasonable load will get ithe bullet out.

I have managed to stick a bullet or two doing powder forward testing in a 6" barrel, and have gotten a plated bullet to exit the barrel as low as 400ish FPS, but at that level it gets real iffy.
 
As to that portion of question related to:

Jimgun: "In my Speer Reloading Manual #13 it states, regarding loading .38 Special, “Lead bullets are best for loading standard pressure .38 Special. . . jacketed bullets create more resistance than lead and can actually stick in the barrel/cylinder. . . to avoid these problems we are showing jacketed bullet data only for 110 and 125 gr. bullets. Note that these loads are marked “DNR” meaning “do not reduce.”
Click to expand...

You've left out the discussion which precedes the phrasing you brought here, and it is important to the discussion.

In Speer #12, the discussion cautions that
jacketed bullets can actually stick in the bore WITH LIGHT CHARGES
Click to expand...

In Speer #14 they've cleaned it up a bit but with similar emphasis that light charges and jacketed bullets should be avoided with:
that jacketed bullets may lodge in the bore IF PROPELLANT CHARGES ARE TOO LIGHT OR SLOW BURNING
Click to expand...

Clearly some form of the same statement exists in Speer #13 since it is contained in both #12 and #14 and I'm not sure why you would leave off such salient language since it clearly answers your question before you ask it.
 
Last edited:
Interesting. Just looking at Speer #14 and while they list 231 for 110 gr bullets and also for 140 gr in +P loadings, it is omitted entirely for 125 gr bullets. Not sure why since it seems well suited.

On a side note, I have managed to stick a 125 gr jacketed bullet in a 38 barrel, but only with loads a little under the listed starting load. So I can see why Speer would worry about heavier jacketed bullets in a worst case scenario.
 
We have to remember the manufactures are listing safe data for the lowest common denominator out there.

Not every .38 Special out there is a K-38 Masterpiece with perfect .357" chamber throats, a .004" cylinder gap, and a mirror smooth bore. Any number of things can contribuate to gas loss & bore friction in a revolver.

And every time they list a safe starting load, somebody is gonna reduce it a grain more and stick a bullet sooner or later.

Used to be, we were all loading match loads that were well proven over many years, or trying to imulate our heros Keith & Skelton.
No wimpy little loads for us back then!

Now, it seems everyone is trying to get 4,000 rounds out of a pound of powder to save money.
And shoot loads that don't kick any more then a .22RF.
:banghead:

rc
 
I appreciate the discussion and the answers given. However, If the Speer manual says for a 125 gr bullet, I should use WIN 231 5.6 gr. With the caution Do not reduce.
Hodgdon Powders, for the same bullet recommends 4.3 to 4.9 gr. WIN231. Am I safe using less than 5.6 or can I use between 4.3 and 4.9 as recommended by Hodgdon? I would be interested in hearing from anybody who uses WIN231 for 125 gr .38 Special.
Click to expand...
Jim,
Are you sure it's W231 that was listed as "do not reduce" and not W296? I have never seen the warning not to reduce a charge when using W231 but I did see it with W296. I have loaded A LOT of W231 over the years and I can go from very light to fairly hot charges with it. W231 is a very versatile powder with a wide range of safe charges.
 
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