Cheap AR: Need Advice

Status
Not open for further replies.
Headspacing, timing, etc... it'd be a nightmare.
Click to expand...

In an AR that is in-spec, headspace is set by the installation of the barrel extension on the barrel. Since all commerical and most custom AR barrels already have a barrel extension installed, you would not need to worry about bad headspace (though checking it with gauges isn't a bad idea since out-of-spec parts are out there).

However, just about all of these places will assemble the upper for you if that is what you want.
 
Coronach: If the question is "cheap AR?" the answer is "Don't."

If the question is how to make a good AR as cheaply as possible, the answer is:

1. Buy parts.
2. Assemble yourself.

Buy inexpensive parts where you can (the lower receiver, for instance...once you get an in-spec lower, which almost all of them are, the only other thinsg to consider are finish and whose rollmark is on the side...and you'll pay for those), but buy quality where it counts (upper receiver, barrel, bolt). Assemble it yourself, as there are VERY few 'gotchas' in the assembly, except, perhaps, mating the barrel and the upper.

Mike
Click to expand...
The only experiences I've ever had with actually building a gun consist of minor, non-permanent aftermarket changes to a 1911 and de-bubbifying a 1903A3. From what others have said, and from what I've seen, building an AR looks to be fairly easy.

However, if I do build one from scratch, and build it right and well, exactly which parts should I definately not chintz out on? The receiver I'd be getting is forged, and several dozen first-hand accounts have assured me they're in spec, so no worries there. But what else? Where should I go for the upper, bolt, and barrel?

The only company I know of that makes a slickside upper is Fulton Armory, and in their description are the words "small hole." What does this mean?

And what sort of "Gotcha"s are we talking about when it comes to mating the barrel with the upper? :uhoh:
 
Last edited:
I'm actually in the process of doing an AR build at the moment (getting parts as money allows). It's my first build of an upper, and I will most certainly have help with installing the barrel. It is not that it seems particularly difficult, it just strikes me as the sort of thing that is easier with experience, or with the help of someone who is experienced. You need to get stuff torqued tight enough, but not too tight, while at the same time get stuff to line up properly. Strikes me as a bit of an art, but I have not yet done it.

A good book can get you through most everything.

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Assembly-Guide-AR-15-Vol/dp/1888722126

"Small hole", IIRC, refers to the size of the takedown pins. Colt used to make uppers/lowers with larger-than-spec holes, requiring special pins. IIRC, small hole should be standard size.

Get an in-spec, no-name lower. Stag is fine.

Get an in-spec upper. Fulton should be more than fine. :)

Get a good lower recoever parts kit. CMMG makes a decent one.

Get a colt or LMT bolt. Jeff White can tell you why their bolts are better. Even if you think he's wrong (I don't), spending a few extra bucks up front is cheap insurance.

Get a standard bolt carrier. Inspect it and make sure the key is staked properly. If it's not, restake it.

Barrels are a point of contention. I'll defer to more clued-in minds on this one. You have the ultimate trade-off...milspec chromed barrels will supposedly run more reliably if you run the gun hard. Match barrels with tighter chambers will be more accurate. How much of a difference this makes either way is not something I, personally, can quantify.

Mike :)
 
This is what I've written down so far, as far as custom-building my "ultimate" carbine. :D I'm basically trying to go for a no-frills, lightweight, reliable gun that's far more accurate than an AK and has the least amount of things that can go wrong. Prices are rounded up slightly, but with no shipping or taxes included.

- Superior Arms Lower (stripped): $100
- CMMG lower parts kit: $60
- CMMG 16 Mid-Length Gov't Profile Barrel, A2 flash hider, standard (not "F" marked for a flat top) front sight base, standard tapered mid length hand guard: $315
- Fulton Armory M16A1 slick side upper, stripped: $150
- Fulton Armory Slickside upper receiver parts kit (ejection port cover assem. and A1 rear sight): $23
- LMT bolt carrier assembly: $130
- CMMG forged charging handle: $25
- Magpul CTR milspec stock w/ buffer tube, buffer, spring: $133
- First Samco Tactical Grip: $26
- Bushmaster BMAS Tactical Sling adaptor: $15
Pre-Total: $977

Critique me as much as you like, since I've never done anything like this before. What am I missing? What should I change? What will not work?
 
Last edited:
Of course, I can step into the local shop and get one of their in-house-built basic 16" CAR-stock Superiors for $595 (before tax), but it's not quite what I want. :eek:
 
This is my most recent personal rifle build.
standard.gif
I built this to resemble a Canadian C1 rifle so it features an A1 fixed carry handle upper.
All the parts except for the trigger group and magazine release and front sight are DPMS.
The barrel is a standard heavy non-chrome lined.
The trigger group is Rock River two stage.
The magazine release is a Norgon ambidextrious.
The front sight post is a genuine Canadian narrow round post, thank you to my Canadian fishing buddy.
Total build cost was about $750 but the trigger and mag release were about 160.00 of that.
All the pieces parts for this one came from Brownells
http://www.brownells.com
 
TOU: Seriously...seems pretty reasonable. So what are they like?
Click to expand...
Skinny or A2 barrel profile (Shaw barrels), A2 flash hider, bayo lug, A2 upper, 5.56, old-style CAR stock...

...that's about it. Really, nothing wrong with them, but they're not quite what I want (which is what the above list is, to a T). *shrug*
 
If you can stand a 20" government profile barrel instead of a mid length,
Bushmaster barrel assembly complete (handguards, front sight, gas tube assembly, flash hider) $235.00
These are chrome lined and available in 1-7 or 1-9 twist your choice.

I don't really know about the Magpul stock, is it a collapser?
The DPMS standard stock is mil spec and has one of the easiest to open door assemblies I have ever used and these are about $67.00 through Brownells.

The forged charging handle isn't really neccessary but for $25.00 that is cheap enough, does it include the handle release assembly too?

That Lewis Machine and Tool Bolt Carrier assembly price seems awful low and that will probably not include a bolt.
If you can get one for that price and it is genuine snap that puppy up, that is a bargain. HTH
 
DPMS Panther A1 Lite 20 has what you want.I'm not sure of the bbl twist.This one has an A1 upper and stock.
Click to expand...
Close, but not quite... barrel and gas system too long, too much stuff on the upper receiver, fixed stock... it is the closest factory config I've seen yet, though. :)

If you can stand a 20" government profile barrel instead of a mid length,
Bushmaster barrel assembly complete (handguards, front sight, gas tube assembly, flash hider) $235.00
These are chrome lined and available in 1-7 or 1-9 twist your choice.

I don't really know about the Magpul stock, is it a collapser?
The DPMS standard stock is mil spec and has one of the easiest to open door assemblies I have ever used and these are about $67.00 through Brownells.

That Lewis Machine and Tool Bolt Carrier assembly price seems awful low and that will probably not include a bolt.
If you can get one for that price and it is genuine snap that puppy up, that is a bargain. HTH
Click to expand...

I've always liked the shorter 16" barrels with the mid-length system... I'm not a good enough shot for the 20" to reall benefit me, anyhow. :eek:

The Magpul stock collapses. As far as the LMT bolt goes, here is where I found it: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-Bolt-Carrier-Semi-AR15-p/bcg-lmt-ar15.htm
 
Well I own rifles in 16-20 and 24"
I am personally finding the 20" is about the best all around barrel and my 16s are losing favor.
The 18 does look like it holds some promise but I am an old fuddy duddy and can't quite come to terms with them yet.

My next build is a 20" flat top M16A4 Marine style.
Waiting on the barrel from Bushmaster right now.
 
That's basically what I'm building, Dionysusigma.

Do you have any details on the weight of the Fulton slickside upper, stripped? I was deciding between that and a Vltor MUR upper, with no FA. The Vltor has the rigidity benefit of being a billet, but I imagine the Fulton will be lighter by a few ounces. How much of a true difference either of this makes (small weight difference very close to the fulcrum point and the alleged benefits of billet vs forged) is anyone's guess.

Do a search for my "Pimp my AR" thread, and you'll see what I was talking about there.

Mike
 
Barrels are a point of contention. I'll defer to more clued-in minds on this one. You have the ultimate trade-off...milspec chromed barrels will supposedly run more reliably if you run the gun hard. Match barrels with tighter chambers will be more accurate. How much of a difference this makes either way is not something I, personally, can quantify.
Click to expand...

In my own personal experience, chromelined barrels typically do five round groups of 1"-1.5" at 100yds with match ammo or ammo they like well. I've seen an Armalite do under 1" for five rounds once; but otherwise haven't seen too many chrome-lined sub-MOA barrel (that is probably more to do with the initial quality of the barrel though than chrome-lining since I've read reports of chrome-lined match barrels like the GTS Operator doing sub-MOA).

On the other hand stainless barrels are almost always sub-MOA capable using five round groups at 100yds. Both barrels are basically 3" at 100yds with most common 55gr FMJ (probably more like 4-5" with Wolf) although I read one poster who said he cut group size considerably by weighing his plinking ammo on a reloading scale and grouping like weight ammo together in the same mag.

Reliability wise, chrome-lined barrels do well if the chamber was cut right to begin with. Stainless barrels seem to vary widely. I think a lot depends on whether or not the people you are buying from understand you plan to run it hard and what chamber is used. Even the nice ones do seem a bit "stickier" when hot then a chrome-lined chamber though.
 
Coronach: That's basically what I'm building, Dionysusigma.

Do you have any details on the weight of the Fulton slickside upper, stripped? I was deciding between that and a Vltor MUR upper, with no FA. The Vltor has the rigidity benefit of being a billet, but I imagine the Fulton will be lighter by a few ounces. How much of a true difference either of this makes (small weight difference very close to the fulcrum point and the alleged benefits of billet vs forged) is anyone's guess.
Click to expand...
Sorry... I haven't been able to find any specs, on either the Vltor or the FA Slickside. If I had to guess, though, the weights would be nearly identical. The extra beefiness of the Vltor can be attributed to about the same amount of material that would go into the handle of an A1.

Our approaches to our Ultimate ARs are close, but have their differences. With the exception of the Magpul stock, I'm going for the simplest possible approach. No rails, no optics, a basic trigger, simple sights (even the milspec A2 system is being avoided), and I've even been thinking about ditching the Magpul stock for an ACE Skeleton. I want, basically, an AR that can give an AK a run for its money as far as lifespan and reliability go. The 16" barrel with the longer sight radius and gas system (without going to a Dissipator) makes for a compromise on both barrel lengths.

Long story short, I am not a sniper, SWAT member, and I won't be invading any foreign countries. I don't want a poorly-made AR, either, so I'm taking a route that can be best described as though the Soviets were building an AR. :D Simple, reliable, durable, and accurate enough (I ask for 2 MOA). An AR with the fewest possible things to go wrong, or for me to think about. I don't need an elevation-adjustable rear sight. Don't need a forward assist. Don't need to take off the carry handle, nor mount optics. Don't need to mount a bipod, light, laser, or anything else. My hand doesn't change size randomly, so I don't need a modular PG. ;) :p

Your approach is much more versatile--rail system, MIAD, NM trigger, suppressor-capable, and so forth. I would recommend the MUR for it as it's 1) a flat top and 2) rugged. You are building from the ground up a rifle that will be able to do anything you could ever need to do with a rifle, from CQB out to 650 yards.

Your system would befit a true master of the rifle. Mine is merely idiot-resistant (not -proof). :uhoh:
 
Got about $590 in this 16" CAR build.....took about 45 minutes of my time.

Keeping it simple, Im not into hanging doohickeys off my rifles.....but I do have a sling mount coming, thats my big "tactical" purchase.

S-15.jpg
 
Re-worked a little to save a bit of my hard-earned money. :eek:

- Superior Arms Lower (stripped): $100
- CMMG lower parts kit: $60
- CMMG 16 Mid-Length Gov't Profile Barrel, A2 flash hider, standard (not "F" marked for a flat top) front sight base, standard tapered mid length hand guard: $315
- Fulton Armory M16A1 slick side upper, stripped: $150
- Fulton Armory Slickside upper receiver parts kit (ejection port cover assem. and A1 rear sight): $23
- LMT bolt carrier assembly: $130
- CMMG forged charging handle: $25
- Fulton Armory used A1 assembly (black) w/ buffer tube, buffer, spring: $80
Pre-Total: $883

Who was it, here on THR, that despised Fulton Armory with the burning fury of a thousand suns? :uhoh: Hope he doesn't see this...
 
No problem....have my checkbook in front of me.



Model 1 Sales 16" CAR Kit with chrome barrel and chamber - $495
- add $3 for extended latch on charging handle
- add $15 for punch set
- add $5 for CAR stock wrench
- add $5 for pivot pin detent installation tool
- add $5 for pivot pin detent removal tool
- add $19 for shipping

Total from Model 1 Sales = $547 ($517 for rifle and shipping, $30 tools)


Then all you need is a stripped lower receiver.......


Superior Arms stripped lower receiver from E & L Guns - $94 (free shipping)

This guy sells these stripped lower on Gunbroker all the time for a Buy It Now of $94 with free shipping. These are good quality lowers, they are well liked over on AR15.COM.

So I have $611 in the rifle total.....and it cost me $30 in tools to do the build. My FFL charged me $15 to transfer the lower.

I will use the tools over, no doubt......but if I bought them again I would NOT get the pivot pin removal tool. I thought this would be handy if I screwed the install up and had to remove the pin. The tool is lame.....its basically a small allen wrench, which I already have and did not cost $5.

I would even question buying the pivot pin installation tool - alot of people say this tool is VERY handy. I got to that part and just popped the pin in before I even remembered I had the tool. Maybe if your extremely clumsy you may need it.

Here is the finished gun - the build (if you can call it that) took about 45 minutes using the AR15.COM guide. It was VERY straight forward process and Im a no-skilled, ham fisted cobbler.

S-15.jpg

I was VERY excited after slapping it together and ran right out to shoot it - I neglected to lube it. Ran 3 magazines thru it with 2 failures to feed.

Today I went back out with 200 rounds after lubing the rifle. Ran 100% with 100 rounds of Remington and 100 rounds of Wolf.

Im going to chalk the first couple failures up to lack of lube.....Im an AK guy and I wasnt aware how important lube is with an AR. I never even thought about lubing the bolt and inside of the receiver......oh well, I guess I learned something new.


I use a MOUT sling setup for my AKs and shotgun.....I already have a few of the tails that attach to the gun laying around so I figured I would just smack one on this gun as well. Im a lefty when shooting rifles (right handed when shooting pistols but I only have the sight in my left eye so I cant shoot a rifle that way) so I grabbed a simple end plate with a loop, left handed. Bravo Company was where I ordered it.

Sling%20Mt%20End%20Plate%20LH05-2T.jpg


Cost $19 shipped - I think the adapter was only $13, rest was shipping.
 
Well, I took the plunge today and bought the stripped lower, built by Superior Arms. I kid you not... the owner of the store had 12 left in stock, was holding onto 10 for some parts kits he was invoicing, and the last one was bought by the guy who literally came in behind me. :uhoh: :eek:

Silly thing is, I came up with this brilliant plan to get exactly the rifle I wanted, but now the simple route of getting a complete kit from Del-Ton (as opposed to the purpose-built method) is looking a lot better to me... especially from a wallet point of view. :eek:

*Sigh* Darn you, THR... :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

K
  • Locked
Best A2 Style AR-15
2
Replies
34
Views
5K
kcmarine
K
A
  • Locked
Thanks for the piston AR advice
Replies
3
Views
495
briansmithwins
B
HoosierQ
  • Locked
20" A2 Style AR-15. Who make them?
Replies
14
Views
2K
HoosierQ
HoosierQ
M
  • Locked
In the mood for an upgraded AR 15
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
Phantom 309
Phantom 309
M
  • Locked
BUILDING AN AR
Replies
7
Views
548
bblumen
B
Back
Top