Cheap Pistols and My Buddies Harassment

Status
Not open for further replies.
Okay, I've got to know, are cheap pistols a danger to me and everyone else just because they are cheap? How about cheap ammo just cause it's on sale? My shooting buddies harass me constantly.

I'm currently using the following for either home defense or carry.

2 Mossberg 500 18.5" 12 gauge ($190 each from Wally World) with #1 Buckshot Reduced Recoil.($0.40 Round from Local Law Enforcement). Maybe 500 rounds each with no issues.

S&W SW9VE Sigma 9mm with 5 mags ($150 after rebate). 2000+ rounds with 2 failures to return to battery in first 50 rounds. I have no issue with the trigger.. Just roll the trigger like an old S&W M10. Currently shooting Federal Tactical Bonded 135+P ($0.20 Round Law Enforcement over run)

Taurus PT111 G2 9mm with 2 mags ($170 new). I shoot it well and other than failure to fully seat the slide when slingshotting the first round when new. It's been flawless through 1200 rounds. Currently shooting Federal 124 HST standard pressure (Reclassified $0.20 Round)

Ruger LCP Gen 2 .380 ($180 new)
500 rounds no issues.
Hornady American Gunner XTP ($0.40 Round).

S&W Shield .45 ($245 after $75 Rebate)
500 rounds no issue
Remington Golden.Sabre 230 Grain (Pre-Black Belt $0.36 Round)

Most everything was bought at Larry's unless otherwise noted.

I'm of the opinion as long as its been reliable and goes bang everytime it doesn't matter what I paid or even if it's a Taurus. My buddies are constantly harassing me for trusting my life to a $200 gun and $0.20 Ammo.

PS Some of those purchases go back over a decade so don't expect to pick up a new 500 for $190.

I don't see a problem. It looks like you need to find new buddies.
 
McAuthur Dairy supplies most stores with milk in my area and it is all the same. When I worked dairy in Albertsons we would have gallon milk jugs with Wal-Mart, Target, etc sleeves mixed in with our store brand
 
There is a difference between consumer logic and corporate marketing strategies.

Here are 5 logic flaws there are others:

Retail price is the sole determining factor of quality.
Velocity is the sole determining factor of quality.
Every single product sold as "X" is of equal quality.
Every single product sold as "X" uses the exact same bill of material, subject to the same screening or AQL lot testing.
Manufacturing quality levels are set at a specific standard and are easily confirmed by the hobby end user and subject to those end user lawsuits.

In a perfect manufacturing environment there are no rejected products. ISO 9002/AS9100 fixes everything and the goods produced are either perfect or scrapped at the point of origin. This is true if the product is a 35 million dollar airframe, if it's a 25 cent round of 9mm ammunition then probably no.
 
ISO 9002/AS9100 fixes everything and the goods produced are either perfect or scrapped at the point of origin. This is true if the product is a 35 million dollar airframe, if it's a 25 cent round of 9mm ammunition then probably no.

Comparing airframe to ammunition doesn't make sense. To suggest that ammunition is knowingly made with lower quality standards ignores the fact that ammunition poses a much greater risk to the person shooting the ammo than to a passenger riding in a airplane. (Just for the record there are a lot of rejected parts when making a airplane.)

This is simply a lesson in mass production and economy of scale. The principle is that more of a product I can manufacture without making any changes the lower the cost per unit and I will have a higher volume of production. By using my manufacturing capacity more efficiently I will enhance profitability.

You can prove this yourself if you own a progressive press. See how many rounds you can make in a hour by cranking out rounds with the same primer, power charge and bullet.

Next crank out the same rounds again for 30 minutes. Then stop and change the powder charge and resume production for the remaining hour. Your number of rounds you crank out will be lower.

However for manufacturer they are faced with how much ammunition they can sell which means either reducing production (reducing efficiency and raising the cost per unit) or reaching a different market. The tricky part is how do you sell the same product at a lower cost without diminishing the market for selling it at a higher price.

A simple effective solution is advertising and packaging of the product. Continue with expensive, high profile advertising such as glossy pictures using pretty models in gun magazines, etc. to appeal to the consumer who is willing to pay the higher price.

However it makes little business sense to ignore the market for people that cannot afford to buy it (leaving the market open to someone else). So change the packaging and reduce the advertising. The volume of sales will be smaller but the profit per unit will remain or maybe even be higher due to the cheaper marketing.

HOWEVER, and it is a big however, it is important that the manufacturer does not reduce the quality and reliability of the ammunition to avoid cheaping the name of the brand.

Want a real life example of this happening? Here is a little history lesson for you youngsters. (Gosh I wish I could be called that).

In the early 1980's Federal introduced their American Eagle line of ammunition. It was packaged in a white box with black print labeling. It was not heavily advertised.

One day we had a Federal factory sales representative stop in the gunshop so we asked him about the quality of the American Eagle ammunition. He explained that was the exact same ammo as was in box of the higher priced stuff. It was excess production and was sold at lower cost due to less fancy packaging and advertising.

Comparing Hornady American Gunner 124 gr. XTP +P to their Custom 124 gr. XTP I can not see a difference. They look the same with the only difference being the headstamp. The case and o.a.l. measure the same. The bullet looks the same. There are no manufacturing defects or evidence of lower quality such as dented case. The only difference I can imagine is with the different or reduced powder charge.

Most importantly it goes bang everytime I pull the trigger and gives good accuracy.
 
Last edited:
Excuse me while I struggle with this information.
Just repeating what I have been told, and 2-3 others who are huge S&W nerds since then said the same, with 99% likelihood /because of the timeframe/. I had to literally order it, and this was after agencies like NYPD and OPP had finished their orders, so no regular line to make them in quantity. S&W (unlike other makers) fills all orders, does not say to wait a year. So, the tale goes, they send those one-offs to their only build-it-once shop, which is the Performance Center.

You don't get the PC stamp so no proof per se, but if you saw the gun... I have had maybe 50 people ask what the hell I am carrying/shooting (when I still brought it out regularly). It is unreasonably nice, with this lovely and not-quite-standard beadblast across the whole gun, a vastly too nice trigger, etc. It's a weird one.
 
McAuthur Dairy supplies most stores with milk in my area and it is all the same. When I worked dairy in Albertsons we would have gallon milk jugs with Wal-Mart, Target, etc sleeves mixed in with our store brand
??? There isn't some central factory somewhere churning out guns with "S&W", "Colt", and "Glock" stamped on them. Quite the non sequitur.

I'll bet the milk in the Albertson's labelled bottles is way different from the milk in the Fairway bottles. Better comparision.
 
I didn't read all three pages.
Since when are Mossberg shotguns considered "cheap" guns? I honestly never heard them called cheap before.

The Ruger LCP and S&W Shield are considered some of the most popular concealed carry handguns available today, very popular. If your friends don't think so they don't know very much about the gun market.

Now for the other 2, while not my style they are still serviceable IMO. Being a revolver guy I just wouldn't buy them.

How about this, if your "friends" don't like the guns you buy tell them they are more than welcome to buy you a "better" gun or two as gifts if they are so concerned. See what they think about that! :evil:
 
I had to literally order it, and this was after agencies like NYPD and OPP had finished their orders, so no regular line to make them in quantity. S&W (unlike other makers) fills all orders, does not say to wait a year.

One of my friends is retired NYPD firearms instructor. Of the firearms he was certified to teach is the 5946. The 5946 was (along with Glock) used to replace the bulk of NYPD's 38 Special Revolvers. It was actually the officers choice, S&W or Glock. My friend was interacting with S&W all the time, this is a customer that purchases 10,000s handguns at a clip. Your information is not something I would repeat in public but don't let me stop your fun.

Just as a point of information, years ago when Bullseye pistol was popular, a lot of shooters would buy (a 1911) first, then send it to a gunsmith to be made into a shooter. Both of my PC S&Ws had work done on them by a gunsmith before I used them. That work would probably not be appreciated by anyone who would want to purchase one of them in the future, might even be considered a negative.

About 10 years ago I owned a 5946 purchased from a company that sells retired PD handguns. Mine was in very good condition but no possible way was the basic construction lending itself to anything other than utility use. I know, I know that there are a lot of fans of the gen 3 S&Ws but that doesn't make them finely crafted handguns. Of the 59xx series (and 69xx series) there were a gazillion made, they were workhorse items not fine match grade hardware. It is true that some enterprising individual might take one and hot rod it as a hobby just like the kid we all knew when we were kids that crammed a big block Chevy motor into a Vega. Any PC variant would have been clearly marked, plain and simple. BTW I currently own and use two (2) PC S&Ws and 3 non PC items. To be honest with you, the PC notation really doesn't get you much.

....HOWEVER, and it is a big however, it is important that the manufacturer does not reduce the quality and reliability of the ammunition to avoid cheaping the name of the brand.....

You seem to have completely missed the point I was trying to make. Oh well, have a fantastic day anyway!
 
Think if I showed up with the Kimber Pro CDP II, Python and the Les Baer Premier II I would hear Crickets?

...I didn't say I don't own a more expensive pistol or two. It's just when I go to the range I tend to bring the pistols I carry and use for self-defense. For some reason the most expensive of those is a G22 Police Trade In with a 9mm conversion. I picked it up with some parts missing (barrel and magazine) cheap. Maybe I just have an aversion to sweating all over a four figure pistol.
 
The only "dangerous" gun on the list is the S&W SW9VE Sigma, and I have to qualify dangerous in quotes because it may or may not be of great concern to you, but is a well tested and proven failing of all SW and SD series Signma pistols. They will absolutely fail a Disconnector / Out of Battery test.

*Story time*. We first discovered this years ago when we were moving into the NOLA market and had to stand up a large number of armed guards at one time. We noticed a larger than normal number of SW series Sigmas coming in for gun checks and at the time joked that they must have all been on sale at Academy has Hurricane specials. (we also picked up several suspiciously cheap patrol cars at the time that earned the same nickname) We noted during the onboarding safety inspection that almost all of the guns that failed were Sigmas. And they were all failing the disco check. We talked to S&W and they denied there was a problem. Of course they did. Duh. But SW series Sigmas went on our banned for use list. The SD series replaced the SW series not long after, and initially they were promising. That is to say, they passed the Disco checks. Well, shame on us. Roll on several years and we are starting to see the SD series fail too now. We aren't sure if it's old guns aging or production standards slipping.

Anywho, like I said, take it however you want. Your SW series will almost certainly fail a Disco check. How many of them have ever suffered a real world out of battery discharge? Who knows. But they are banned equipment with us due to this safety issue.

The more you know.
 
??? There isn't some central factory somewhere churning out guns with "S&W", "Colt", and "Glock" stamped on them. Quite the non sequitur.

I'll bet the milk in the Albertson's labelled bottles is way different from the milk in the Fairway bottles. Better comparision.
I was trying to reply to one of the previous posts but forgot to quote it.

There probably isn't that much difference in quality between budget and high end ammo
 
The only "dangerous" gun on the list is the S&W SW9VE Sigma,

Just unloaded the Sigma and did a press check until I could just see the chamber opening. It will not release the striker. Is that the correct procedure?
 
Just unloaded the Sigma and did a press check until I could just see the chamber opening. It will not release the striker. Is that the correct procedure?

That's the way. If it passed now, good. I would check it again every couple hundred rounds. My pet theory on this one is that S&W used some cheap parts to keep the cost down on these guns and they wear out quickly. At least that's how my brain rationalizes that the older SW always seemed to fail and the newer SD didn't.. until the started failing.

Anywho, now that you know what to look for, it shouldn't be a concern for you. Just check from time to time and you should be good to go.
 
Think if I showed up with the Kimber Pro CDP II, Python and the Les Baer Premier II I would hear Crickets?...…..

Thank you for this informative post. I now have a much clearer understanding of just exactly what is going on.
 
This is how the Newbie becomes a gun experts. He reads the ads. And why crap can actually be the most sold. The Power of Advertising! Ever found a underrated firearm and wonder where the heck it has been all your life? If so, probably because the company did not spend a fortune in Ads.

upload_2018-10-30_20-35-28.png
 
... My buddies are constantly harassing me for trusting my life to a $200 gun and $0.20 Ammo. ...
I would probably just suggest that they urinate up a rope and if they don't dial it down, find some new friends.

O'course, you could also point out to them that Christmas is only a coupla months away just in case they want to buy you a HD firearm that does not cause them so much angst. ;)
 
Thank you for this informative post. I now have a much clearer understanding of just exactly what is going on.

The Python was a 21st Birthday Present from my Grandfather 30 years ago. The Kimber I bought two years ago from Cabela's when they had them about 60% of MSRP (Year after the II was discontinued) primarily with Coupons, Cabela's Bucks and a couple of Gift Certificates. The Les Baer I bought private sale for $900 (I believe it's still the most cash I've ever paid for a firearm. I do have an LC Smith or two that were more but a trade was involved).

If you trade and buy for 35 years you do start to amass a collection.

I've averaged one firearm every 6 months over that period.
 
Replace them with buddies who have "cheap" pistols and you won't be harassed.

I used to go shooting with people who thought my Sig 1911 was "cheap" ... Now I shoot with people who think Sig pistols are great. :neener:

OK ... are cheap pistols a danger to me and everyone else just because they are cheap?
And if new buddies are not missing any fingers/hands, shoot away!
 
What are your buddies talking about when they're not ragging on your gun selections?
Perhaps you are overly sensitive to their jibes, but they probably bash each other's guns,
too. I get into it with fan boys, all the time. Listen more, and see if they are ripping on each other, too,
or just ganging up on you. It might just be all friendly conversation.
OTOH, I have a few Mossberg 500s, never considered them cheap. They are the mainstay of my shotgun assortment, and the lightest, strongest, most versatile shotguns I have. Ruger and S&W I always
considered well made shooters.

Taurus, well, ennnh. But I'm not going to rag on my buddy's gun, he does OK with it.
 
bersaguy: said:
...I could hold my own because I practiced more....Main thing is to be proficient with what you have, better equipment does not a better shooter make. I found that the refinements that make expensive guns expensive aren't very useful unless you have the basics down.

This is what it’s all about, if you can out-shoot people with fancy, expensive hardware at the range, then that’s the best way to shut them up.

The OP has several decent low-cost firearms that are fine for a casual shooter, but I’d want to spend that same total money on one or two higher quality & reliability firearms that I could pound rounds through to improve my shooting.
 
Larry's Pistol and Pawn in North Alabama.
They run a lot of good sales when a model is being updated or discontinued and they can get them in quantity. Something a little like Bud's but local to me.

I understand completely on the Taurus but but when the PT111 G2 dropped to under $170 (thanks to the lawsuit on older guns, election results and the coming G2C update) I couldn't resist. It has proven to be a wonderful pistol. Extremely thin for a double stack, very easy to carry, accurate, low recoil, very easy to grip for a compact and reliable. It took awhile but I'm past the name on the slide. I just hope I never need their Customer Service (Their reputation doesn't instill confidence). If the others are anything like mine I don't know how you would get a better CCW for the money (as matter of fact I simply can't find anything I like better at any price although the .45 Shield is a close runner up).

A way around Taurus customer service would to be order through Davidson's and get their lifetime warranty
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top