Child hostage at Walmart

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jef2015

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Lotta unknowns here.

What distance? What gun? How confident are you in your marksmanship with the specific task at hand?

An opportunity for a near certain CNS clean "kill"? Gotta say take the shot. Anything else? Man, I wouldn't want to be the civilian bystander that shot the kid!
 
I'm not a negotiator. If it was my child, then I would have shot the man if a chance opened up. If it wasn't my child and I just witnessed it happen? I probably wouldn't try to intervene with the fear of pushing the suspect over the edge before getting a chance to shoot.

Even in this situation it took two officers to successfully end the standoff.... There is only one of me. This was a situation for a precision shooter with a sniper rifle. Fortunately, these officers were able to end it when that was not an option given to them.
 
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So you have a means to end the problem? Everyone there probably did. Think about it. We all have cars, but are you going to try to take the guy out with your car? No, of course not, but that is a means to end the problem.

Maybe you are a trained hostage negotiator?

Maybe you mean that you will be using a gun. Fine. Is it that you have a gun or that you have a gun and have the skill set to make a definitively incapacitating shot such that the bad guy won't be able to hurt the little girl, or that the little girl won't be stabbed when the bad guy collapses, or the little girl won't be smashed into the ground when he collapses? It isn't enough that the guy be stopped, but that serious injury or death to the little girl does not occur as a result of your actions. Of course, you can't hurt or kill anyone else in the process either.

So the issue is a lot more complicated than it looks, even if the situation appears to be quite simple and the problem resolution (neutralize the bad guy) seems simple as well. It really isn't.

You do what you think is right, but understand that if it goes south and YOU are the one who causes injury to the little girl, you may be ruined emotionally and financially. Choose wisely.
 
LOTS of questions here.

As an armed citizen, do you have a duty to intervene in a stranger on stranger situation like this - or just dial 9-1-1, observe, report, be a good witness, maintain contact etc?

If you think you do have a duty to intervene - do you have the mindset, skillset and toolset to do so effectively? Are you SURE? (Mod note - chest thumping won't be welcome on this thread)

What happens if you mess this up? Have you really dug down and thought about it, seriously considered what it would mean to you, your parents, your wife and kids, and all your friends if you screwed it up in one of the many possible ways things could go wrong? Last time I screwed up (just by a teensy bit, I swear) in such a situation in a live fire scenario, it cost me an extra 200 points on my score. What would it have cost in real life?

The temptation right off the bat is to shut this down as too speculative in too many ways. But I'm going to let it run for a bit, just to see what kind of reactions it provokes.

The yellow lines on this one are REALLY close together, members - and staying between them is not optional.
 
We've had similar discussions in other threads. Without being there, I think it is very difficult to say what you would or wouldn't do.

Seeing a child in danger, knife to their throat, mom freaking out, adrenaline coursing through your system...there are a lot of variables here to consider:

Are you trained in hostage negotiation? Have you received professional instruction on split-second close quarters combat? Are you legally and morally prepared for either the child to die because of you, or the criminal, or both, based on your actions, or lack thereof?

This is a job for a trained professional...and thankfully that's who showed up.
 
Very tough to act here as an armed citizen, especially when you know the cavalry will be coming very soon from every direction. Not a position I'd want to be in. I don't think I'd want to step in unless the BG started actively hurting someone and immediate action was necessary.
 
Hello friends and neighbors // Run the other way, call 911.
So far the child is unharmed and it is my duty not to escalate the situation.

The knife wielder could possibly be the child's father or family member....to many unknowns. Safest for all to put this in the hands of a trained professional negotiator.
 
I think the only way I could take a shot is if he was actively stabbing the child or someone else. There's too many things that could go wrong otherwise.
As soon as the guy see's a gun it goes to a whole other level.
 
I think, as I get a feel for the situation, I would certainly not abandon the scene. Again, depending on the atmosphere and my own gut feeling, I'd probably just "pull up a chair", so to speak, and try to get him talking to me without even letting him know I'm armed.

I do have a law enforcement background, but have far more time in EMS, and I think that both have helped enable me to engage in dialogue. Not necessarily "hostage negotiation"; just dialogue. As long as he's talking to me, he's not doing anything else.

Anything that happens after the police have gotten there and taken over is off my conscience. My goal would be just to buy them time to do so.
 
most hostage situations resolve themselves eventually without the need to shoot anyone. without knowing any details that might make intervention a better option best bet is to do nothing and wait for the cops to show up and wait him out.
 
It depends on your training and how much you know about the situation. I would call the Police and get into position to intervene if things went further south. Glad the Law got there quickly and dealt with it.
Now if was my child I would be inclined to say I would inclined to reacted on my own.
 
My child: I'll do whatever I can to ensure his safety. Given the EXACT scenario in the article/video, where the guy said that in one minute he was going to kill my kid, I would have attempted what the cop did, although he had the benefit of a partner to create a distraction.

Another person's child: I would have made sure the police were notified, then gone somewhere to wait to give a statement without being a witness to a gruesome knife murder of a child, nor being in the path of a knife-wielding psycho who has nothing to lose after knifing a child.
 
For whatever it's worth, that's a chilling ending to the standoff. That cop was utterly decisive when it came to that point.

I would add - anyone thinking about what it would take to end a situation like this, police or civilian, had better be as cool, steady and sure as that police captain was.
 
Kobayashi Maru

I don’t really have anything intelligent to add here except to note that this scenario is a really good example of something I think all of our training misses, there may not always be a good option to choose. We should all at least give some thought to a no win situation
 
All I can do is speculate on what I hope I would do in such a situation which would be the best witness possible. I would hopefully position myself close enough to intervene if it is absolutely the last ditch effort to save the childs life before the police arrived, but far enough away to hopefully go unnoticed by the perp. Once the police show up its on them, but I couldn't live with myself knowing there may have been something I could have done to save a life. Thats not me thumping my chest or anything and it definitely doesn't mean I would have to even introduce a firearm. It's just how I'm wired. I had an incident the other day where a pedestrian was hit by a van and I was the first person to rush to the pedestrian's aid and did what I could until the paramedics arrived. All that to say I hope all my training and skillset would be able to help me make the right call at the right time. I just hope I never have to make that call.
 
If it was my child, I'm in it up to my neck without question. My kid at the hands of a mad man, you can bet I'm going to act on it.

Someone else child, if your asking would I try to distance myself from this situation, as in walk away cause it's not my kid / problem, no, I'm not capable of doing that. I'm going to do what ever I can to try and help, in any way I can, and when, or if, opportunity arises, while keeping in mind to not push this guy over the edge or further endanger the child.

Way too many variables to pose an approach I might take!

GS
 
Do you act right off the bat? Hard to say.

Personally, the Pastor made an excellent move, keeping the bad guy contained and from moving off.

http://youtu.be/iFARdc3zmkQ

In the case of the guy standing there and not leaving. I can't say. I've dealt with a number of crazed maniacs in my life and it would depend on what I saw and what I anticipated.

The one situation where I would intervene without question is if the guy was leaving the store, as in about to go out the door. You can't let a child be taken by a kidnapper.

Stationary like he was before the police arrived. Keep and eye on him from a safe distance and don't spook him.

Obviously if it was my child... well I didn't take all those fancy classes for nothing.

Kudos to that officer.
 
As an expectant father that is incredibly tough to watch. How I would react, I can't even begin to say but controlling the rage would be tough.

On a slightly lighter note, I bet that poor little girl couldn't hear well for a while.
 
ilbob said:
most hostage situations resolve themselves eventually without the need to shoot anyone. without knowing any details that might make intervention a better option best bet is to do nothing and wait for the cops to show up and wait him out.
Click to expand...
We've also seen multiple instances where hostage-takers continue to become more paranoid and more desperate to take extreme measures as the crisis continues.

The only thing we do know is that the longer the criminal had the knife to the throat of the child, the higher chance that the child may be injured or killed by the criminal.
 
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