China incident; relevant to RTKBA

[Trent]

For those who engage in debates with hot headed gun control folks today. (My Debate thread was closed by AL, but this is important information to have at hand in the coming days; mods feel free lock discussion if you'd like).

TODAY - halfway around the world:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2012/12/2012121481220620325.html

At least 22 children and one adult have been injured in a knife attack outside a primary school in central China, police say.

....

China has witnessed a spate of school stabbings in recent years, leading to more security guards being deployed across the vast country.

In March 2010, eight children were murdered in Nanping, Fujian province, by 41-year-old knifeman Zheng Minsheng. The attacker was executed a month later, hours before 33-year-old Chen Kangbing injured 16 students and a teacher at Hongfu Primary School in Leizhou, Guangdong.

In April 29 2010, 28 school children - mostly four-year-olds - were stabbed alongside two teachers and a security guard in Taixing, Jiangsu. On April 30, Wang Yonglai committed suicide after using a hammer to attack preschool children in Weifang, Shandong.

Further attacks in the months and years following have left 11 children and four adults dead, and several more injured

Synopsis;


* This is not a problem unique to the United States.

* In countries where guns are TOTALLY outlawed, homicidal maniacs STILL find a way to commit mass murder in weapon free zones.

* The ONLY viable way to stop a mass murder in progress is to either wait for the attacker to choose to stop (via escape, surrender, or suicide), or to use force to stop them.

(I hope this doesn't earn me an infraction - this counter argument is relevant to debates on Right to Keep and Bear Arms. -- thank you)

 

[wannabeagunsmith]

I agree.

 

[fanchisimo]

Your post has nothing to do with the shootings today, and proves a valid pillar of gun advocacy. The gun is a tool only able to be used by an individual. Absent of it, a so-motivated individual will still performs heinous acts. I agree that this is a very valid post.

 

[Rail Driver]

Absolutely. And yet I challenge you to find a mainstream media outlet in the United States that would report it in lieu of a slanted news report on this or another shooting in a gun free zone designed to increase fear and decrease resistance to anti-freedom legislation.

 

[P5 Guy]

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-08-02/news/27071465_1_rampage-shovel-loader

And a bulldozer works fairly well too.

 

[PRM]

Bout Sums It Up!!!

Deleted

 

[Lex Luthier]

This story will be lost in the shadow of the CT tragedy. This story only makes our argument for crazy people, and does not help the antis argument for the weapon in and of itself.

 

[Solo]

I wonder if you could make an argument to antis about how restricting coverage of these incidents would help reduce copycat crimes, and how the Founding Fathers could never have foreseen the power of the modern media which puts too much power in the hands of people seeking to express themselves...

 

[blaisenguns]

My argument to them is : You want gays to have the right to marry? Fine You want to legalize marijauna? OK, that sounds like protecting liberty for those with alternate lifestyle choices, I can live with that. What about me? I like guns, and I want to be able to own as many "assault weapons" as
I can afford, why should my liberties not be guaranteid as well?

 

[rozziboy18]

holy crapola! he took a hammer to pre-schoolers!?!?

 

[jbrown50]

I watched Piers Morgan on CNN last night just to see what the nutty antis were saying. John Lott and Daniel Gross were on the show and of course anti gun Morgan, with his personal agendas galore, wouldn't allow Lott to get a word in edgewise.

Daniel Gross of the Brady Campaign of course was allowed to say whatever he wanted. He thinks that the attacks on school children in China is irrelevant because in the latest incident in China, in which 22 children were attacked with a knife and not a gun, no one was killed. He coveniently left out the murders of 18 school children in China since 2010 by derranged individuals with edged weapons.

 

[LiveLife]

If unwarranted attacks in public places cannot be prevented and law enforcement cannot respond timely to protect lives, I prefer the "right to defend myself and others" option through the CCW.

When unarmed airline pilots were helpless against hijackers, they were armed to protect themselves and the passengers. Interestingly, even Barbara Boxer supports pilots to "serve as the last line of defense against attacks on passenger planes" - http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77449.html

Incidents of attacks (whether weapons used are firearms or knives, etc.) occur daily around the world, they are just not publicized as much.

 

[blaisenguns]

I watched Piers Morgan on CNN last night just to see what the nutty antis were saying. John Lott and Daniel Gross were on the show and of course anti gun Morgan, with his personal agendas galore, wouldn't allow Lott to get a word in edgewise.

Interesting how an English national is so demonizing of our secound amendment rights. Its not like gun-control has worked in his homeland.

 

[Quiet]

This is not a weapons control issue, this is a mental health issue.

 

[Trent]

If unwarranted attacks in public places cannot be prevented and law enforcement cannot respond timely to protect lives, I prefer the "right to defend myself and others" option through the CCW.

When unarmed airline pilots were helpless against hijackers, they were armed to protect themselves and the passengers. Interestingly, even Barbara Boxer supports pilots to "serve as the last line of defense against attacks on passenger planes" - http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77449.html

Incidents of attacks (whether weapons used are firearms or knives, etc.) occur daily around the world, they are just not publicized as much.

THAT is solid gold, there.

Thank you.

The "TSA" wasn't our primary or initial response. That came later. The primary response was to arm pilots.

Right?

 

[JustinJ]

First off, I saw this on the front page of cnn.com before yesterday's school shooting. Second, does anybody really believe comparing these two incidents will be favorable to gun rights? Had the knife wielder been carrying an AR or AK one could certainly argue that there would have been 22 or more dead children in China. Those who advocate banning or further regulation of firearms don't believe doing so will prevent anybody from ever having the desire to commit such an act again. They believe doing so will make such acts harder to commit, less effective and less likely to succeed. No matter how much we may or may not agree with that position let's at least have enough integrity to not misrepresent the opposition arguments. The whole "guns don't kill, people kill" mantra is a rebuttal to an argument that is not even being made.

 

[Trent]

Justin;

The rebuttal is to people blaming firearms for murder, instead of the people who commit the crimes.

And yes, THAT argument is being made everywhere I turn over the last 24 hours. I've never seen so many people on social media and news stations calling for bans on firearms.

The problem is when the person who commits mass murder follows the act with a suicide, there's no "justice". There's no closure. There's only questions. People have to blame SOMETHING, and in the absence of a live person to parade on trial in a court for the news cameras, they're going to lay blame to whatever they CAN.

 

[JustinJ]

People realize firearms are used to facilitate mass shootings. That is completely different from blaming an inanimate object for the actions of some people. Arguing otherwise is a straw man argument and is just the gun community talking to ourselves.

 

[jon86]

subbed

 

[fanchisimo]

But how would banning/restricting make a difference to someone with such heinous intentions. No hi-cap mags, no semi-auto, is not gonna factor into a deranged individual's decisions. No matter the tools available, if mass murder is your goal, and your survival is of no concern, you will succeed to some degree. Th at is why we are resistant to bans, they only affect normal, legal gun owners.

During the 1994 AWB perioed high cap-mags were banned, yet Harris and Klebold obtained them for use in Columbine. , among other firearms violations. So China's story is relevant because it is another incident where gun control does not equal a prevention of violent crime. Bottom line, the only ones who lose are the ones who follow the rules.

 

[reggie_love]

This isn't the best argument, being as nobody died.

However, we shouldn't be looking to China as a role model for any part of our government whatsoever.

 

[Neverwinter]

This is not a weapons control issue, this is a mental health issue.

People don't seem to want to deal with public health issues, from the discussions I've seen. Their solution is usually to deal with the symptoms rather than the source.

 

[blaisenguns]

I was arguing with someone on facebook who said that "On the one hand, gun control laws tend to work quite well in countries that are smart enough to implement them, but on the other hand, those same countries also tend to have other factors that influence lower rates of violence in general." This was the example that I used to defend my position.

Depending on what argument the opposition uses, and how they word it this can be a useful example.