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Cho, narcississm and a nation of cowards.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by SaintofKillers, Apr 19, 2007.

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  1. SaintofKillers

    SaintofKillers Member

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    First I try and think logically and not emotionally. I hear alot of other countries complaining about how we are basically a nation of gun nuts.


    IMO Here is the problem with America coming from an american. We as a society have fostered a public of narcissism and cowards. Most are concerned about one thing, themselves and no one else. This is what fosters situations like this Cho wacko.

    The other thing is we are mostly made up of a nation of cowards. Someone comes in with a gun and we cower in the corner like sheep in a burning barn while the barn door is wide open waiting for the farmer to come and save us all.

    Sorry brothers and sisters it isnt going to happen. Not one of those people with the exception of courageous professor tried to stop this clown. They were all too concerned with their own safety and too scared to do anything to try and stop it.

    I guess 9/11 didnt teach us anything. In any situation FIGHT BACK. Our survival as a society depends on it.

    I am not ready to die as much as the next person but if the situation arises I am not going to sit there and just take it. Someone comes to kill me, family or friends they have got a fight coming. I teach my 6 and 8 year olds that. Its sad that this is the way the world is but its something we all have to face.

    About guns. No amount of banning is going to stop what happened. Cho was determined to kill and the students at VT were denied the right to have the tools to defend themselves. I am not saying firearm ownership is for everyone its not. In fact I think if you want a firearm then you need to have a mentor to guide you in the proper use and safety of a firearm. Plus its more fun that way.

    Law enforcement is there to solve the crime after the fact. They dont have the time or resources to protect everyone. Nor do they have an obligation to do so.

    Everyone has an obligation for thier own personal responsibility and safety.
     
  2. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    I agree with you.

    However, you do realize you're being un-PC?:uhoh:

    BTW my son died two months ago, so if anyone thinks I'm without compassion for the victims' families, or that I want to spread blame and guilt to the grieving, all I can say is, "up yours!"

    I want this to be a great nation and a great world. And I pray for those grieving in Virginia.
     
  3. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Fight Back

    The notion of fighting back...even to save oneself...has become politically incorrect because that involves *GASP* violence! And violence is simply unacceptable, you see...except, of course, for the ones who are hired to do violence.

    Much more kind and gentle to run and call someone to come and risk his or her life to do what we ourselves are unwilling to do. It doesn't matter that the poor policeman has a family to care for. He must come and risk his life to save mine! It doesn't matter that the poor serviceman...young and in his prime...would like nothing better than to come home and spend his days providing for his family. He must risk his life to save mine because I'm just not
    comfortable with violence! Violence is baaaa...baaaa....baaaad! I'm a good person! I just can't hurt anybody! Here's a hundred bucks! You go do it for me! (But don't hurt him TOO bad, or I'll lobby to have you removed from office and imprisoned.)

    :barf:

    And so it goes that we've been so thoroughly brainwashed by the cry: "Violence isn't the answer to everything." that we've come to feel that
    violence isn't the answer to anything. There are some situations that can only be handled with violence. The tragedy at Virginia Tech is one such situation.

    Whenever violence is offered...return the favor tenfold.
     
  4. wingman

    wingman Member

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    The press and public schools love victims, and they believe they are building
    a better America.:(
     
  5. SaintofKillers

    SaintofKillers Member

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    I am sorry for the loss of your son.

    That aside, I think you were missing my point. Society has taught our children to roll over when confronted with a situation such as this. Our children need to be taught when backed into a corner to fight back.

    As for not being PC, honesty is my only excuse.
     
  6. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Sorry Saint.

    I wasn't clear; I was being sarcastic about being "PC."

    I agree with you 100% about your first post, and about valuing honesty.

    My point about my son is that someone might think that you and I are callous for thinking this stuff. But I know for sure that I'm NOT callous. I've never been less callous in my life than I've been for the last few months. I've also never been more honest.

    Like you, I want to see us have COURAGE as a nation. It is better to die on our feet than live on our knees.
     
  7. Hawk

    Hawk Member

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    A couple of Cooperisms always brighten my day.

    VIOLENCE
    January 1975--"One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that 'violence begets violence.' I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure--and in some cases I have--that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy."


    ARMED ROBBERY
    February 1992--"We continue to be exasperated by the view, apparently gaining momentum in certain circles, that armed robbery is OK as long as nobody gets hurt! The proper solution to armed robbery is a dead robber. It is the responsibility of the victim to turn the tables and demolish the robber. Street crime will cease only when the perpetrator becomes convinced that his operations will almost surely result in his death."



    FIGHT BACK!
    November 1993--"Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk, and at whatever the cost, fight back!"
     
  8. jfh

    jfh Member

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    I agree with the general thrust of the sentiments here--but I do see some hope on the horizon.

    As one of those on the front edge of the boomers--technically, I am not one, but I was impacted by the cultural stuff of the Late Sixties and Early Seventies--this anti-violence stuff is strongest among

    1) the 'activist' mindset from about age 45 to 60,
    2) the subset 'female-activist' mindset of that age, and
    3) the sub-subset 'educator-female-activist' mindset of that age.

    In sum, there is a dominance in public education right now by people who think this way. However, those women are heading towards retirement, AFAICT. And, I do NOT see as much knee-jerk antiviolence stuff 'mongst the next generation or the one following it.

    The other factor is the cultural / red-state-blue-state stuff, and I dunno the solution to that one. I think we will see it, however, when France or New Jersey collapses economically.

    Jim
     
  9. eliphalet

    eliphalet Member

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    ArmedBear,

    Nothing I can say will help but you have my deepest sympathies to you, I know some of what your pain is, mine will have been gone 7 years come August. The hurt never completely stops but it does get easier as time passes, and this is making my eyes wet.

    My BAD, me hits back.

    I am a boomer so to say, child of the 60's, and you must know a buncha different ones than I do, but I did tend to run with a pretty much wild bunch, but also your right in that was when it began. Also I have just thought of this and it will not come out right. but here goes anyway. I think the PC way of thinking is another approach to Soften the American spirit so to speak. If a people are afraid or so indoctrinated to NOT stand up for their own personal protection and rights how can they be expected to stand and fight for their rights as a whole? hmmm
    I guess I was cut from a different cloth, I have always stood up for me and mine and if you don't think so step over the line so to speak into my personal space so to speak PC or not I will see to it you stop that action one way or another right or wrong in the eyes of of this PC world. If it takes a soft word or a stick or stone or whatever I will stand up for my rights! rant rant I stop now, bad boy bad boy not PC shame shame. NO! believe this way and always have, always will. But then I have always been kinda a rebel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2007
  10. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    I've just about had enough of this bravo sierra. Boyos, if someone comes in and starts shooting at you with a firearm you either get to cover or you DIE. Life isn't like the movies, and what you call "cowardice" is common sense. An unarmed attack on a motivated gunman is suicide.

    YOU HEAR THAT SHOOTING, YOU GET TO G-D COVER OR YOU GET THE HELL OUT!! Are you people really so ignorant? Did you grow up watching too many "A Team" episodes? Unarmed charges against a guy pumping bullets into anything that moves WILL get you killed. It happens over and over again, from the Luby's shooting to the most recent one. An opportunity to move in may present itself, or it may not. But the assumption that anyone with a pair should rush to the gunfire is dangerously idiotic. Ron Edwards, the VP of Bethel High, was a big tough guy. He thought he'd go out into the hall and man handle the shotgun from Evan Ramsey. Well as I got to hear blow-by-blow during the depos in that civil suit, all Edwards got for his courage was a slug through his innards and death. THAT is what good old American courage will get you. Forget about it. The only hope you have of surviving, let alone getting the edge on a punk like that, is to be even more ruthless and sneaky than he is. If you get lucky enough to be behind him when he's putting a new magazine in, slam a table leg into his head and keep on pounding till it's jelly. But the chance of getting that opportunity is extremely slim. If you've got no iron, you've got almost no chance.

    Would you rush a brown bear unarmed? Keep in mind that a young male punk on a shooting rampage is, bar none, the most dangerous animal on the planet.
     
  11. wingman

    wingman Member

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    Numbers can sometime be on your side better to rush an armed person then be shot setting still ,(and no I do not consider myself a John Wayne far from it) but 5 or more people rushing a shooter some will survive or at least a fighting chance. That is common sense to me.
     
  12. eliphalet

    eliphalet Member

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    But remembr this happened fast , unlike flight 93 these people didn't have time to think and plan.
     
  13. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    That kind of common sense and a few grand will buy you a coffin. Forget about it. Even if some of you make it, you're going to have a heck of a time getting the guns away, let alone restraining him. The loon will have the strength of three men. The only hope is a sneak attack using the maximum possible force against his cranium and neck to try to kill him quickly. If you have a knife or heavy club, maybe. But totally unarmed? It's going to be damn near impossible to pull off. You'll save many more lives securing a room and getting an evac route going out the window, helping folks down.

    And remember, all they had to deal with were box cutters. Going against firearms is a completely different animal.
     
  14. wingman

    wingman Member

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    That is great if an exit exist however if in a closed room and someone
    decides to shoot you would it not be best to die trying. I will not, cannot
    believe it is best to lie quite while someone puts several rounds in your
    body. It sounds to me as if your making the standard police statement
    never fight back and that is basically what this thread is about.
     
  15. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Bravo Sierra

    Quote:

    >Unarmed charges against a guy pumping bullets into anything that moves WILL get you killed.<
    *****************

    And so will crouching under a desk. So the question remains: Better to die trying to do something...or to die doing nothing? At least with a sudden rush, you have a chance to live. With the other, your odds drop exponentially.

    Cover is good if you can find it AND keep your distance AND return fire. When the cover means little more than an extra few seconds of horror and dread waiting for the ax to fall...it's not really cover. Hesitation is your enemy.
     
  16. BigG

    BigG Member

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    I don't think everybody responds the same to threats. I have loved ones I have tried to reason with and pleaded, offered to provide the gun, etc. who would not use a gun in their own defense. They would cower, as would a good proportion of the general public. Not everybody is going to fight - another legitimate response is flight, and some do that by burying their head in the sand.

    I believe this to be true, despite my best wishes it weren't.
     
  17. wjustinen

    wjustinen Member

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    Cosmoline

    If that "brown bear" was after my loved ones I would rush it buck nekkid with nothing but a broken fingernail.

    As I sat in my college classroom over the past months it was readily apparent to me that the only likelihood of survival for me and my classmates was to stop the threat with whatever was available.

    Last fall we had a college shooting in Montreal with 20 wounded. One of my classmates worked in that college.

    Jeff was right about fighting back and I thank God that I was able to receive my training from him in '76.
     
  18. Caimlas

    Caimlas Member

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    The cowardace isn't so disturbing in and of itself. What makes it all the more disturbing is that we're not hearing those who ran say anything other than "it was terrifying": no regrets for not having done more, and no sorrow for running while others died.

    We've become a nation which regards our own individual, selfish existence in higher regard than doing the right thing and, just as significantly, doing what is simply necessary for our own survival. Despite the rhetoric of individualism, there is no such thing: we are all connected in one way or another to those in our community, and what we do in regard to them has a way of coming back to us.
     
  19. Caimlas

    Caimlas Member

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    Indeed. Better to die standing, with my feet in motion, than on my knees, entertaining a foolish notion. I intend to go out with my bootstraps pulled on.
     
  20. Caimlas

    Caimlas Member

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    It's been shown repeatedly that a person can close the ten yards from a gunman in the time it takes the gunman to get the gun up. An improvised effort at a doorway to tackle him to the ground - even if your dead body simply holds the f*cker down for a moment so others can tackle him - would be better than nothing. Furthermore, this guy reload at least twice, judging by how many bullets were expelled. Likely more like 3-6 times, I imagine. How much distance can be covered between the lock of the slide and its return between magazines? That's what, 4 or 5 seconds?

    It could have been done, and should've been at least attempted. It wasn't. All the students ran like livestock.
     
  21. EricTheBarbarian

    EricTheBarbarian Member

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    i guess this kind of kills the arguement that if you use a gun for self defense they will just take it away from you
     
  22. eliphalet

    eliphalet Member

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    Talk is cheap and action is stronger than words. If I would have been in that classroom when he came in guns blazing my first thought would have been through a window or behind something that bullets can't go through.
    Self preservation is your 2nd strongest instinct. I better stop but talk is cheap.
     
  23. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Look, people. There is no fighting option here. Charing boldly at the threat is not the product of courage, but insanity. And I can pretty much guarantee if the bodies were hitting the floor you'd be singing a different tune. This waving of private parts and stern keyboard pronouncements about how the manhood of the nation has sunk are more disgusting than the rants of the murderer. I think some of you are actually trying to use the massacre to make some bizarre political points about how the nation has become too "feminine."

    Not if he's already up and shooting, which he most certainly would be. You charge, you get shot. FIREARMS. Remember them? You either have one at the gun fight, or you don't go to the fricking fight.

    IF YOU ARE NOT DEATHLY AFRAID OF THE BUSINESS END OF A FIREARM, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION!

    Cowering isn't the answer, but it will work for a start. If the shooter is moving towards you and your cover will not hold, bolt for the nearest window and go for a little trip. It's harder to hit a moving target.

    And guess what--a determined predator doesn't respond to bluff charges. Either two or four legged. He'll just remove your arms. That's the real world.
     
  24. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    I don't think we have enough knowledge of what actually happened in each room yet to call anyone a coward. It doesn't take a big man to call the slaughtered helpless names, I think we should know the facts before even thinking of doing so.

    I've so far seen reports of 2 people confronting him, I suspect there is alot more we don't know.
     
  25. ElZorro

    ElZorro Member

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    jfh; while I agree with you on the aportionment in your

    summary, IF you restrict your sample space to the academic community, I rabidly deny its applicability within the general populace.

    Being on the leading edge of the "baby boomers" (born 1938), I find that, among my generation, we are predominantly of the "defend the farm" mindset. We are also (with the proper indoctrination into the actual text of the Constitution) predominantly Constitutionalists. Some may be initially ignorant, but not unteachable.

    And so, I will agree with your summation, if restricted to the academicians, but not as a generality.

    As to the "rush the gunman" versus, "cover your ass" disagreements, I would not suggest what anyone else should do, but damned if I die with my hands covering my eyes.

    Shoot me in the face, MF, but you'll not shoot me in the back.

    ElZorro
     
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