Choosing a first defense weapon and strategy...

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JAshley73

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Hello folks. I recently posted my first thread on THR in the Shotgun section asking, "How to choose a shotgun." I'm starting to think however, that for my first gun purchase, that placing personal and home protection ahead of recreation is the more responsible thing to do. And while the answers in the shotgun thread were helpful, creating an emergency defense plan with a shotgun, for now at least, is full of gaps. I am now leaning towards a pistol for a couple reasons, but I ask for your feedback about my reasoning and creating an emergency defense plan. This will be my first gun purchase, and unfortunately I cannot spring for both right now.

And before going any further, I want to make clear, that I realize that the use of potentially deadly force is only acceptable as an absolute last resort to protect one's life and family, and that leading up to that event, every possibly opportunity to diffuse and resolve the situation must first be made. I have been doing a lot of reading on the matter, learning and considering many aspects and burdens of responsible gun ownership, and the possible repercussions in the event of defending myself and family through the use of deadly force. This is not something that I'm comfortable taking casually, and I realize that making the decision to purchase a firearm to protect self and family, comes at great cost and responsibility. I understand that I will need to have some serious discussion with my wife on the subject, and I accept that I will need to invest a great deal of time, practice, and training/education into the matter.

Now on to the situation at hand...

For starters, I am interested in purchasing a shotgun mainly for the recreational reasons, not as dedicated self defense weapon. The first problem is that said shotgun would not be a fit for both myself and my wife (who has little interest in her own gun, for now at least.) I see this as a huge disadvantage, as she would be highly unlikely to practice, and/or effectively (therefore safely) use the weapon should her (our) life(s) depend on it. From my P.O.V at least, a pistol would allow both of us to comfortably use the same gun with little compromise in fit.

Second, she has more general interest in shooting a pistol, so that leads me to believe that she's more likely to practice, and hopefully at some point want her own gun. If she's not comfortable with her own, that's okay, as I don't want to force any of this on her. (I am of the mindset that unless one is fully aware of and comfortable with the responsibilities of gun ownership and use, that they have every right not to do so.)

The third reason, lies within our four walls. As I described a little bit in the shotgun thread, our home's floor-plan is rather open. We have one large living kitchen/dining/living space, joined to three bedrooms by a single 22' long hallway. Point being, it would be possible that once the intruder entered the house, it would take only a matter of seconds before making it to the bedroom(s) where the good stuff resides. The quickest accessible way to a gun would be a pistol in the night stand. We don't have any children in the house, so I'm not worried about keeping a pistol in a night stand, but in the case of a shotgun - I take issue with it sitting in a visible corner. Leaving it in a closet, in my house at least, may not afford enough time to gain access before the intruder makes his way in. The thought of a pistol being at arms reach seems comforting, at least for now.

The Fourth reason for siding with a pistol first, is that it can be carried at all times if need be, or taken along in a vehicle - impractical with a shotgun. And if in the slimmest possible case that we came home to an intruder already inside the home, it would sure be to my advantage to have a pistol in the car, or on my person, as opposed to the intruder having MY loaded shotgun now pointed at ME. (I also fully realize, that the wisest thing to do in this situation, given sufficient warning, would be to stay in the car, in front of the house, and call 911...)

If this indeed is the route to go, we'll probably head to the range and try some rentals to narrow down a purchase. I have already spoken to a concealed carry instructor, who would most likely be available for private lessons for the both of us. We also would have as a resource, both current and former law enforcement officers within our families, so that's a huge plus too. And to boot, we have a local gun club just a few miles from our house, so hopefully practice would be just around the corner...

So I need your help in examining my logic folks. I am trying to come at this with as clear and thought-out of a perspective that I can conceive for now, but obviously I lack the insight found only in experience that so many of you here have gathered. So I am completely open to suggestions, criticism, or scrutiny. If I am missing something, please feel free to point it out! Thank you THR!
 
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It sounds like your choice of weapon type is already made and your reasoning why sounds solid. A good midsized .38 or .357 may be a good choice for you and your wife.

Several years ago, I realized my family had NO plan for what to do if someone were to break in (and what to do in case of fire, medical emergency, …). I had to leave very early one morning, so I jump in my truck, start to leave and see the ‘monster’ that had been digging up my yard. I jump out and take aim with a pistol from about 40yds, shoot & miss. Several shots later, the ugly yard digger was dead.:) As I make my way back toward the driveway, my wife yells out from the carport, pretty pissed about the shooting. OK, so it’s 3:30am, all she knows is she’s been wakened by gunfire in the backyard and her reaction was to walk outside. After that, I started thinking of how we should react to different things and what each member of my family should do. We talked about it and continue to talk about it. I have made several changes since finding this site and reading here. There’s some really good threads here that could help you tidy up some of the other loose ends in your home defense. I wish you luck in getting you wife interested. Mine has figured out that if she wants to spend a little extra quality time with me, it will probably involve yard work or shooting. ;)
 
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Your main goal seems to be carry of a SD firearm. A pistol is the favorite choice for that. Make sure you're in compliance with all laws, of course.

My first "real" gun purchase was a 9mm pistol, so I'm having trouble faulting your logic. :D

Cautions: don't assume that the SD pistol you like is the one that your wife will like, in any way. If having her practice with the pistol is a primary concern, have her pick it out (you can practice with "her" pistol, even carry it; if she won't practice with "your pistol," that's a loss.
I'm not worried about keeping a pistol in a night stand, but in the case of a shotgun
Nothing prevents a shotgun from being a reach away, or either a pistol or shotgun from being as secured as is your preference.
 
Take a look at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=649746

Guns are essentially 'Plan C,' for when attempts at encouraging de-selection of your home as a target by VCAs fail (Plan A), and for when your attempts to secure your home against intrusion (Plan B) fail.

Walk around your home with the mind of a thief, and look for things that would help you approach unseen or loiter unnoticed. Make sure all doors and windows that are accessible - even second floor windows that can be climbed to reach - have good locks, and are locked. Are there useful things to a burglar in your garage, unsecured? Pry bars, sledge hammers, ladders? Don't supply your prospective burglar with his tools.

Once your vegetation and landscaping are such that no one can hide around your home, look to better securing your home's perimeter. Longer screws in door hinges and lock strike plates, for example - a pack of 3" wood screws and some doorknob reinforcement plates doesn't cost much. Think about motion activated lighting - there are decent battery powered units available now that will work even where there is no line power available, and even when the power is off. And so on.

As to choosing firearms, if your spouse is going to be expected to use it, even if only in an emergency, she should have a major say in choosing it IMHO. See http://www.corneredcat.com/, and see if you can get your spouse to read some of the material there also. I feel pretty confident that whatever your wife likes and can use comfortably, you can adapt to use as well.

I know this is pretty bare bones, but it'll have to do for now because RL is calling. Hope it helps,

f
 
For starters, I am interested in purchasing a shotgun mainly for the recreational reasons, not as dedicated self defense weapon. The first problem is that said shotgun would not be a fit for both myself and my wife (who has little interest in her own gun, for now at least.) I see this as a huge disadvantage, as she would be highly unlikely to practice, and/or effectively (therefore safely) use the weapon should her (our) life(s) depend on it. From my P.O.V at least, a pistol would allow both of us to comfortably use the same gun with little compromise in fit.

You've got something very wrong there. Pistols, out of all the firearms, are the most sensitive to differences in fit. Pistols are tougher to use than longarms. If your wife is interested more in pistols, then buy her something cheap in any caliber between 9x18 and 45ACP. A Makarov or a Hi-Point ought to do it. Make sure that she samples and tries a lot of different guns before she chooses. Definitely do not pick her handgun just because it works for you. Handguns seem to be one of those things where people have the most variability. Have her take a pistol course and learn the gun. It is, in my opinion, quite important for people to do their best to learn their weapons. Handguns are also very hard to use effectively under stress.

Second, she has more general interest in shooting a pistol, so that leads me to believe that she's more likely to practice, and hopefully at some point want her own gun. If she's not comfortable with her own, that's okay, as I don't want to force any of this on her. (I am of the mindset that unless one is fully aware of and comfortable with the responsibilities of gun ownership and use, that they have every right not to do so.)

Don't force your wife into gun stuff and definitely don't go ahead and buy a handgun for her without her being there to make the final selection from the videst possible range of weapons. Be careful in heeding the shop guy's advice; many of them will mislead the uninformed and unwary buyer. Do not be talked out of trying a gun too large in caliber just because she's a woman. It sounds as if you are ultimately going to be sharing guns for the forseeable future.

The third reason, lies within our four walls. As I described a little bit in the shotgun thread, our home's floor-plan is rather open. We have one large living kitchen/dining/living space, joined to three bedrooms by a single 22' long hallway. Point being, it would be possible that once the intruder entered the house, it would take only a matter of seconds before making it to the bedroom(s) where the good stuff resides. The quickest accessible way to a gun would be a pistol in the night stand. We don't have any children in the house, so I'm not worried about keeping a pistol in a night stand, but in the case of a shotgun - I take issue with it sitting in a visible corner. Leaving it in a closet, in my house at least, may not afford enough time to gain access before the intruder makes his way in. The thought of a pistol being at arms reach seems comforting, at least for now.

That is a valid point. However, at 22 feet, you're being a bit optimistic about shooting under stress. A handgun is not likely to be highly effective at such a range. You do sound worried about your home's innate hardness. Before you purchase a gun, at least make your home harder to breach. Purchase sturdier windows and doors. Get tougher locks. If you've got the money, then purchase an alarm system. And if you're worried about the shotgun being too far away in a closet or visible in a corner, then keep a cabinet beside the bed or get a strong hardcase for it and close it with a tough padlock that can only be opened by keys that you and your wife keep on your persons at all times. Anyhow, with 22 feet of distance, there's no reason why you shouldn't consider loading your shotgun with either size 0 or larger buckshot, or with slugs. Alternately, you could look into a smaller size rifle or a pistol caliber carbine.

The Fourth reason for siding with a pistol first, is that it can be carried at all times if need be, or taken along in a vehicle - impractical with a shotgun. And if in the slimmest possible case that we came home to an intruder already inside the home, it would sure be to my advantage to have a pistol in the car, or on my person, as opposed to the intruder having MY loaded shotgun now pointed at ME. (I also fully realize, that the wisest thing to do in this situation, given sufficient warning, would be to stay in the car, in front of the house, and call 911...)

Very good point about the pistol being unobtrusively portable. However, definitely consider hardening your home entry points and consider keeping your shotgun under secure lock and key, although thieves seldom steal long arms, even those left in the open. They just are not a great black market sell nor is it plausible to inconspicuously move around with a full length weapon. If any gun is stolen, then expect it to be the handgun.

If this indeed is the route to go, we'll probably head to the range and try some rentals to narrow down a purchase. I have already spoken to a concealed carry instructor, who would most likely be available for private lessons for the both of us. We also would have as a resource, both current and former law enforcement officers within our families, so that's a huge plus too. And to boot, we have a local gun club just a few miles from our house, so hopefully practice would be just around the corner...

It seems as if you've got a pretty good clue on how to go about it. Try as many handguns as possible and don't believe anything a shop guy tells you until you've tried it for yourself.

So I need your help in examining my logic folks. I am trying to come at this with as clear and thought-out of a perspective that I can conceive for now, but obviously I lack the insight found only in experience that so many of you here have gathered. So I am completely open to suggestions, criticism, or scrutiny. If I am missing something, please feel free to point it out! Thank you THR!

It's quite thoughtful and reasonable of you to post your ideas, situation, logic, and circumstances to people and letting them have open season to critique and discuss them with you.

Here's one thing that I think you've overlooked: a rifle type carbine for defense inside the house. For a bit of extra length, you can get great increases to accuracy, handling, ergonomics, and lethality. Rifles are much more accurate and easy to use, which is a great plus for when you're under stress. Rifles can also be a bit more user friendly, and can be very simple to operate with reduced risk of fratricide or unintended discharge. Lastly, rifles outclass pistols on the whole in lethality. Even the weaker rifle calibers are more energetic than even some of the more powerful pistol cartridges. A shorter model of carbine is about equal in length to a handgun at proper extension.

HandgunAndRifleExtensionComparison.jpg


And that's one of the tactical 16" M4 type AR-15's that are ever so popular. They're around 33 inches long. An SKS is 40 inches long. An AK with the stock folded is 26 inches long and 35 inches with the stock deployed or with a fixed stock. There is no reason in your situation to not seriously consider and investigate a pistol caliber carbine or an intermediate centerfire rifle.

You mention that you and your wife have significantly different fit for longarms which requires that you get a single handgun as your common defense weapon? That doesn't make much sense. You're 6'0" and your wife is 5'4". I'm 5'5" and my brother is 6'5". When we went shooting together with his 5'10" friend who brought along an M1911 and a Hi-Point carbine, nobody needed to adjust stocks, grips or anything for that matter. I've passed around weapons with friends and nobody has yes complained of trouble because Mr. 6'2" spindly-armed giant's long AK stock is too much to handle, nor has anybody complained that Mr. 5'8" stubby limbs's compact FS2000 configuration is too small for them. On the other hand, pistol fit is much more intensely personal and unpredictable. A Glock 21 which works perfectly for you could very well be too fat for her. Meanwhile, a pistol she thinks is a dream could be a plain nightmare for you.

You said you had a budget of about $2000 maximum, yes? Here are some possible arrangements I suggest with shotgun omitted for redundancy:

x1 $170 Makarov in 9x18
x1 $220 Hi-Point in 45 ACP
Spend the rest on home improvement and ammo.

x2 $200 Hi-Point pistol (any caliber)
x1: Hi-Point carbine (any caliber)
Spend the rest on home improvement and ammo.

x2 $450 Glock pistols (any caliber)
Spend the rest on home improvement and ammo.

x2 $400 handguns (any caliber)
Spend the rest on home improvement and ammo.

x2 $400 handguns (any caliber)
x1 $200 Hi-Point carbine (any caliber)
Spend the rest on home improvement and ammo.

x2 $500 handguns (any caliber)
x1 AR-15
Spend the rest on ammo.

x4 $400 handguns (any caliber)
Spend the rest on home improvement and ammo.

x2 $200 handguns (any caliber)
x1 $500 AK
Spend the rest on home improvement and ammo.

There are more combinations, but I am not listing every single possible one.

One last thing, check out http://www.corneredcat.com/
It's got information about how to pick out a pistol, how to get your wife to hate or love shooting, and so many other important things.
 
You should bring your wife to the range to try out some rental guns with you. Pick one she likes and is comfortable with... then you, as the "gun guy," can learn to work with it. You don't want it to be the other way around.
 
Excellent advise folks, thank you. After a serious talk with my wife about our plans, we'll have to get some range time in with a few rentals and see what she likes most. I also appreciate the comments (and the link) about first and second layers of prevention and protection. We'll spend some effort here as well.

If you all see any fatal flaws or missing holes with any of my logic so far, feel free to sing out. Thanks folks!
 
There is no reason why a suitable defensive firearm cannot also be fun recreationally.

We (wife and I) make it a point to choose concealable, defensive handguns that are also fun to shoot. This will make it so that you will look forward to practicing rather than regretting it.

I made the mistake once of choosing s dinky little auto that was very easy to conceal but painful to shoot (.32 ACP NAA Guardian). This little bugger was painful to shoot, it actually hurt the hand, and it was nearly impossible to hit anything since it was intended for very close quarters defensive use. We hated to have to go out and practice with it (my wife and I had matching units). Ammo was expensive also and somewhat hard to find.

We sold 'em and bought a pair of Glock G19's. We both also have Ruger LCR's and S&W Airweights in .38 Special. I also have a Glock G36 in .45 Auto + a Ruger GP100 in .357 Magnum.

We both love to shoot our carry guns. They are accurate, reliable and great fun to shoot even if we are just knocking tin cans around. If we didn't have CCW's and carry concealed + didn't have defensive requirements, this list of handguns would still be a hoot to shoot.

JMHO

Dan
 
You have to know how to use it
which means you have to KNOW how to shoot

Sorry, but you got it all backwards,
to Paraphrase Lee Lapin (Fred Fuller ^^^ above) line
KNOWLEDGE, SKILLS, EQUIPMENT -- IN THAT ORDER
 
Bergman: That's precisely the reason I've been avoiding a small "sub compact" carry pistol. I want something that's comfortable, adequately sized, and rather affordable to shoot. A Glock 19 sized gun would probably fit the bill perfectly. We'll see what the wife has to say. ;)
 
Bergman: That's precisely the reason I've been avoiding a small "sub compact" carry pistol. I want something that's comfortable, adequately sized, and rather affordable to shoot. A Glock 19 sized gun would probably fit the bill perfectly. We'll see what the wife has to say. ;)

Well, in my case my wife bought the G19 first. We went to the gun shop with a completely open mind to make a choice on an auto for her. She fell in love with the G19 and loves it to this day. I was ambivalent, had no opinion on Glocks one way or the other.

After we went out and shot it a few times we headed to the gun shop so I could get one too. Same thing happened with the Airweights. The LCR's was my idea.

It's all good.

Dan
 
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