Christians Bearing Arms

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As a practicing Evangelical Quaker I have always wrestled with this one. I think it is clear that hunting or shooting per se is not a problem. Nor is owning a firearm. If someone broke into my home or threatened my family or friends (no pun intended) I think after a moment of conscience that I would probably shoot them, but the threat would have to be clear, imminent, and extreme. I think that follows legal requirements and precedent anyway. I don't think you can use Christianity to justify the response, however. God deals with sin and I think killing somebody, even in self defense, is sin's response to sin. In principle, this is the same thing we teach our young children in directing their response when confronted by a bully. If, in the end, you have to, then defend yourself. But fighting in itself is not the best response, only the most appropriate.

I believe the conflict of nations and capital punishment fall into different categories. A later discussion perhaps. There are so many views on both sides that the discussion/debate is worthy of its own website.

Hope I didn't violate any FAQ's here, Dan.
 
:D I guess my signature line best expresses my feeling on the topic:
 
But fighting in itself is not the best response, only the most appropriate.
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Hokkmike, I would be exceedingly interested in hearing you explain this more fully. If you feel it's inappropriate for the thread, feel free to PM me.

(this part got edited after a short history lesson on my own church - maybe I'll put something back later)
 
Christian teachings advocate turning the other cheek, loving your neighbor (even when your neighbor is culturally or historically your enemy; the Jews and Samaritans Jesus uses in "The good Samaritan" parable were not on friendly terms), and general non-violence. The only fighting advocated was for the cause; the verse "No one can come to me who does not hate their father and mother, their siblings, and life itself" is not condoning suicide or mass murder; you must love God at the expense of all these things, and in Jesus' time following his teachings required a certain disregard for the personal consequences. Even today, a steadfast following of Christ in modern American life would set you at odds with most of those who do not believe as you do, or those who do not believe as strongly.

Do you then defend yourself when they come to silence you? Christians bearing arms really is far more complex an issue than it seems on its face. Those who truly accept Christ would not kill another who had wronged them, even if the alternative is for they themselves to die. "Those who love life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will have everlasting life". Those who talk about the Holocaust and how it would never have happened if Jews had guns forget that Jews have similar principles of nonviolence. They also forget that Jews comprised just over half of those wiped out by the Holocaust; 6 million Jews, but 5 million Gypsies, homosexuals, Communists, Socialists, and other enemies of Hitler, many of which were Christian. Suffer in silence, and God, who sees your good deeds, will reward you in private.

On the other side, in that same vein of debate, is Pastor Martin Niemoller's poem:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social Democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social Democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Against those who want to not simply kill you, but destroy all that you hold dear, it is immoral NOT to fight against them. Not to protect yourself, your loved ones, or your property, but to ensure that even if you die, the great victory of mankind in all its diversity will endure in peace for ages to come.

These are hard words for many pro-gun people to hear; most I've talked to, and yes argued against, want firearms to protect their life, liberty and property against common criminals who want to take those things. That's not why you should have a gun. The reason the Founders gave you that right is so you can exercise it to protect the American way of life, even at the cost of everything else.
 
As a practicing Evangelical Quaker I have always wrestled with this one.
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I am sure that you have heard this, but there is the tale of the elderly Quaker gentleman who awoke to hear an intruder downstairs. Grabbing his trusty squirrel gun he announced from the top step: "I do not intend to hurt thee, but thou ought to move since I intend to shoot where you are standing."
 
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Those who truly accept Christ would not kill another who had wronged them, even if the alternative is for they themselves to die. "Those who love life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will have everlasting life".
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Your statement and your quote are not dealing with the same issue. Your statement talks about someone simply doing you wrong, while your quote from the Bible deals with losing your life for the Lords sake.

Against those who want to not simply kill you, but destroy all that you hold dear, it is immoral NOT to fight against them. Not to protect yourself, your loved ones, or your property, but to ensure that even if you die, the great victory of mankind in all its diversity will endure in peace for ages to come.

These are hard words for many pro-gun people to hear; most I've talked to, and yes argued against, want firearms to protect their life, liberty and property against common criminals who want to take those things. That's not why you should have a gun. The reason the Founders gave you that right is so you can exercise it to protect the American way of life, even at the cost of everything else.
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I am a Christian and I can't agree more with you.

I also know many more christians that believe the same way so I don't think that the first part of your post is a fair representation of our believes.
 
Hokkmike: Granddad was a Quaker, and he was a colonel at Normandy. He told us that there are sectarian differences between Quakers on the issue.

And so it is with the rest of us non-Quakers: this is always going to boil down to sectarian differences.

For instance, in my Church our primary teaching is that as a believer in the resurrection, you are forgiven your sins.
We teach original sin - that sin is a state of being as much as it is a set of actions.
We teach that if you are in a situation where you must choose between two sins, you are to choose and sin boldly, knowing that you are forgiven.

So if the choice is between taking a life on one hand, and allowing multiple others to perish on the other hand, we should take the life in good conscience.
 
I'm a christian. I carry a Gun.
I believe that God has blessed me with the ability to mkae decisions for myself. The bible instructs for me to take care of and protect my God given body, as it is a temple unto God, and I should respect the great gift of life that I was given.
That is why I've been getting serious about exercise, diet and personal safety over the last few years.
First of all... it makes me a good example for others to live their lifes by. Second of all, it keeps ME accountable to other people that I care about and who care about me.
I love My salvation, but I am not a bible thumper. I am a friend. I build relationships. And as someone who values the relationships he builds, I desire to protect myself and my friends/acquaintances from any evil I can have authority over.
Am I a cowboy? NO. Am I looking for someone to shoot, or an excuse to use my firearm? NO. Am I a genuinely loving and caring person that just desires to be prepared at all times? Absolutely!
 
To understand the teachings about turning the other cheek, one really needs to go back to the original writings in hebrew and greek, the gist of the whole thing isn't translated too well. The idea was that you don't fly off the handle when verbally insulted or subjected to minor physical insults. The king james version was first translated in the early 1600s, 1604-1611 to be exact, this is where the 'turn your other cheek' phrase seems to have appeared. At that time, duels and jousts (fights in general) were started when one dude smacked the other across the face with his glove. The idea behind 'turn the other cheek' was that you don't escalate a minor situation. Its not a call to let other people kill your sons, rape your women folk, burn your house and sodomize your dog.
 
The idea behind 'turn the other cheek' was that you don't escalate a minor situation. Its not a call to let other people kill your sons, rape your women folk, burn your house and sodomize your dog.
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Exactly. The bible talks about this so much. Talks about how so many people love to pick a fight, and all they need is for you to accept the challenge to escalate it. You're supposed to know better, and know the situation is foolish and not be a part of the reason things could eventually get out of hand. You're to diffuse the situation, if it's in your control.
 
We teach that if you are in a situation where you must choose between two sins, you are to choose and sin boldly, knowing that you are forgiven.
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That is an interesting concept that I have not before considered. Inaction is a choice that has consequences. Too many think they can avoid a tough choice by simply doing nothing, which is a choice unto itself.
 
It appears to me the old Quaker had Biblical warrant to shoot the invader.

Exodus 22:2-4 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. 3 If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4 If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.
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I've never understood why ANY Christian has a problem with this. The greatest gift God has given me is my very life, and to refuse to defend that life, or the lives of my loved ones, is essentially telling God I don't want his greatest gift.

The concept of turning the other cheek applies only to minor annoyances. Nowhere has God, or Jesus, ever said or implied one should simply roll over and die rather than defend himself.
 
This thread may be locked...so here I go.

I'm a spiritual Jew; therefore a practicing Christian. Just like gun owners, Christians have been labeled by ignorance.

A lot of non-religious folks or spectators who have faith, see Jesus as Mr. Rogers in a robe carry a sheep. Labeled as weak, stand offish and warm/fuzzy preaching.

But that's totally the opposite. I'm glad Christians are taking arms, they are protecting the human temple. Again, we don't have guns to kill...we have them to stop a dangerous threat.
 
The Westminster Larger Catechism 1643 teaches that not defending yourself or others is a sin.

Q. 134. Which is the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.
Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defence thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labour, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behaviour; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succouring the distressed and protecting and defending the innocent.
Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defence; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.
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One helpful clarification

The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life.

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html
 
God deals with sin and I think killing somebody, even in self defense, is sin's response to sin.
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God works in many ways. It is infrequent that God delivers an angel with a flaming sword to fend off evildoers. However, I believe He frequently arranges for good men to be where they are needed to stand and stop evil doers.

I got to say, killing a man who is about to kill a busload of children, that is not a sin in my book. Thou Shalt Not Kill is a very rough translation, I am told that the hebrew/aramaic word is clearly one that denotes murder, not killing in general/self defense

Those who truly accept Christ would not kill another who had wronged them, even if the alternative is for they themselves to die. "Those who love life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will have everlasting life".
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I don't see that part as indicating one should not defend onself. I see it as realizing that your faith may require you to enter into dangerous territory, war zones, and the like. You cannot expect to stay home and be safe, but when you are out carrying back the wounded from the front lines, you are expected to defend yourself and those under your care who cannot defend themselves

Christian teachings advocate turning the other cheek, loving your neighbor (even when your neighbor is culturally or historically your enemy; the Jews and Samaritans Jesus uses in "The good Samaritan" parable were not on friendly terms), and general non-violence.
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Remember, turn the other cheek is involving personal insults, not deadly attacks. Regarding love thy neighbor, to me, that means if I ever have to shoot someone, once he is not a threat, my religion would require me to call 911 and begin administering first aid. But in general, I believe non-violence is not an accurate description. Christianity seems less involved with doing or not doing violence, but in doing or not doing good. Because really, walking by and letting the suffering man die, well, that IS non-violence, wereas beating back the brigands as moses did at the well, that IS violence, but the right kind of violence, as he was intending to help the helpless.
 
This topic often gets Christians confused, but the Bible has a lot of specific information regarding this.
I got all of the text below from www.liberty.edu

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill..." (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8).

from www.liberty.edu

It is apparent that our God-authored freedoms must be defended.

Throughout the book of Judges, God calls the Israelites to go to war against the Midianites and Philistines. Why? Because these nations were trying to conquer Israel, and God's people were called to defend themselves.
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from www.liberty.edu

Finally, some reading this column will surely ask, "Doesn't the sixth commandment say, 'Thou shalt not kill?'"

Actually, no; it says: "Thou shalt not commit murder."

There is a difference between killing and murdering. In fact, many times God commanded capital punishment for those who break the law.

We continue to live in violent times. The Bible tells us war will be a reality until Christ returns.
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However, I know that this thread isn't going to be the final argument on the topic. Just my .02
 
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