Igor is correct that the translation from Hebrew leaves much lacking in such an important word. The translation is really "murder" which is a huge difference. In the Spanish translation, it was done correctly, "asesinar". If the improper translation to English was correct, I couldn't hunt deer or step on a bug either. Murder constitutes the intentional and unprovoked killing of a human. Killing means just that. It was too broad of a translation. This means I can defend my home and my family's life without any problem with my conscience. I cannot go out and commit premeditated murder, and I'm really ok with that.
Christians Bearing Arms
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takhtakaal
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Roswell 1847 said:
Let's not get too "more worthy of salvation than thou." "Heathen" is a bit harsh.
deolexrex
Member
Individuals are not always a great representation of the overall group. We as gun enthusiast should understand this fact.
Roswell 1847
member
You are wrong if you judge any denomination by the remarks of a single member.
I look at it like this, any Sin is forgivable, also since on several occasions men I've stomped like a grape have told me years later that the beating they got had changed the course of their life for the better.
One spent two weeks p'ing blood and barely able to get out of bed. Later he told me that the experiance convinced him to change his ways, now he's a respected member of the community.
Another that I put in Intensive care for a month approached me at a low point in my life and convinced me to return to the Church. The come upance he'd gotten had made him a better man.
Staring death in the eye due to your own over weening pride and disregard for others will make a man re evaluate himself and the course he has chosen.
Some of the best of men where scoundrels in their youth.
PS
Heathens are without God but worship their possessions, in the ancient sense they worshipped their home and land. Hitler was A Heathen according to the best analysis of his actual beliefs.
Some people get Medieval, when attacked I go Neolithic.
takhtakaal
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heathen
One entry found.
heathen[2,noun]
Main Entry:
2heathen
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural heathens or heathen
Date:
before 12th century
1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible 2 : an uncivilized or irreligious person
— hea·then·dom Listen to the pronunciation of heathendom \-dəm\ noun
— hea·then·ism Listen to the pronunciation of heathenism \-thə-ˌni-zəm\ noun
— hea·then·ize Listen to the pronunciation of heathenize \-thə-ˌnīz\ transitive verb
***
At any rate, I'm not so sure that it does any of us any good, whatever our faiths, to do anything that would make us seem predisposed to violent reactions to provocation.
One entry found.
heathen[2,noun]
Main Entry:
2heathen
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural heathens or heathen
Date:
before 12th century
1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible 2 : an uncivilized or irreligious person
— hea·then·dom Listen to the pronunciation of heathendom \-dəm\ noun
— hea·then·ism Listen to the pronunciation of heathenism \-thə-ˌni-zəm\ noun
— hea·then·ize Listen to the pronunciation of heathenize \-thə-ˌnīz\ transitive verb
***
At any rate, I'm not so sure that it does any of us any good, whatever our faiths, to do anything that would make us seem predisposed to violent reactions to provocation.
deolexrex
Member
From Noah Webster's 1828 American English Dictionary
Henry Bowman
Senior Member
Let's keep this thread on track. Or it will be locked.
That being, how to address arguments against self defense or keeping/bearing arms that are based on biblical or Christian precepts.
That being, how to address arguments against self defense or keeping/bearing arms that are based on biblical or Christian precepts.
I say lock it. I was pretty interested in what folks had to say about how various Christian denominations view self-defense.
It appears to have degenerated into bragging about the ability to stomp someone and name calling over who is a heathen.
Mike
takhtakaal
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Unfortunately, I agree.
Recounting stomping others in our wild days of youth does nothing to advance our efforts to be seen as responsible and level-headed, especially when it's combined with what looks like disdain for other beliefs.
Recounting stomping others in our wild days of youth does nothing to advance our efforts to be seen as responsible and level-headed, especially when it's combined with what looks like disdain for other beliefs.
Sage of Seattle
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Why don't we first allow the OP to ask for a lock? I am still pretty interested in what folks had to say about how various Christian denominations view self-defense, but now you've decided that this conversation cannot continue.
Gee. Thanks.
I was interested in sharing my perceptions of self-defense from a Lutheran point of view, but I doubt I'll have the opportunity now to form a thoughtful response before the lock.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Thoughtful Response
I always welcome a thoughtful response.
The rest of you are not obliged to continue reading.
Please do.
I always welcome a thoughtful response.
The rest of you are not obliged to continue reading.
MarshallDodge
Member
I am a Christian and I carry a gun. The church I belong to is a Free Evangelical denomination. Our doctrine is here in case you would like to read it. Our pastor is not much of a gun guy but their are quite a few of us in the church that are.
The Bible says thou shalt not kill. I pray that I will never have to use my gun against another human but if someone tries to kill me or my family then I will have to stop them.
The Bible says thou shalt not kill. I pray that I will never have to use my gun against another human but if someone tries to kill me or my family then I will have to stop them.
Personally, I am a christian and I carry.
I do not spend all day dreaming of engaging in armed combat, but I know very well I would shoot someone who is a clear threat to myself or my family and then sleep peacefully. Just as I would after putting down a rabid animal. In both cases it is a sad duty, but had to be done.
I think part of the problem is people focus on one attribute of God (which we are called to emulate- "put on the new man, put off the old") and ignore all others.
We are each gifted with tendencies towards the different attributes. I tend to be more concerned with Justice. My girlfriend may be more concerned with grace. Others are more concerned with mercy. No one is wrong except when they deny one for the other. (Deny Justice totally in pursuit of mercy is wrong, just as pursuing only Justice and ignoring Mercy is wrong as well).
As such, God has called certain members to be the instruments of Justice while other members of the body are instruments of Peace, Mercy, Love, Grace, Charity, etc... The Body has many parts, but one Head.
In this way, I understand how some Christians cannot envision even harming another person.
Incidentally, I go shooting with my Pastor who happens to have his CCW permit (as well as his two sons). (He also tends towards Justice)
I do not spend all day dreaming of engaging in armed combat, but I know very well I would shoot someone who is a clear threat to myself or my family and then sleep peacefully. Just as I would after putting down a rabid animal. In both cases it is a sad duty, but had to be done.
I think part of the problem is people focus on one attribute of God (which we are called to emulate- "put on the new man, put off the old") and ignore all others.
We are each gifted with tendencies towards the different attributes. I tend to be more concerned with Justice. My girlfriend may be more concerned with grace. Others are more concerned with mercy. No one is wrong except when they deny one for the other. (Deny Justice totally in pursuit of mercy is wrong, just as pursuing only Justice and ignoring Mercy is wrong as well).
As such, God has called certain members to be the instruments of Justice while other members of the body are instruments of Peace, Mercy, Love, Grace, Charity, etc... The Body has many parts, but one Head.
In this way, I understand how some Christians cannot envision even harming another person.
Incidentally, I go shooting with my Pastor who happens to have his CCW permit (as well as his two sons). (He also tends towards Justice)
Roswell 1847
member
Well as noted a term can have more than one definition.
In germanic Lore the Heathen, or their term which translates as Heathen means as I said, one without God or gods for that matter, whose center of worship is his home as his land. Its the most primitive of European beliefs, and can't easily be classified as a belief system since theres no real philosophy to it.
A Heathen might be considered an Autocython, one who springs from the ground.
Since there don't seem to be any of those primitive European hunter gatherers still walking around that use of the term may have fallen out of favor.
My use of the term includes only those yahoos that have acted like Heathens in my presence.
We also use the term for children at times, meaning they are too young and ignorant to know how to act in public.
Now if a man tries to do harm to me I use all necessary force to end the threat. Since every serious opponent I've faced was a grown man they generally took a fair amount of punishment before going down for the count.
PS
In germanic Lore the Heathen, or their term which translates as Heathen means as I said, one without God or gods for that matter, whose center of worship is his home as his land. Its the most primitive of European beliefs, and can't easily be classified as a belief system since theres no real philosophy to it.
A Heathen might be considered an Autocython, one who springs from the ground.
Since there don't seem to be any of those primitive European hunter gatherers still walking around that use of the term may have fallen out of favor.
My use of the term includes only those yahoos that have acted like Heathens in my presence.
We also use the term for children at times, meaning they are too young and ignorant to know how to act in public.
Now if a man tries to do harm to me I use all necessary force to end the threat. Since every serious opponent I've faced was a grown man they generally took a fair amount of punishment before going down for the count.
PS
Hokkmike
Member
MarshallDodge -"Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly" Micah 6:8 - We are commanded to exercise all of these things, none at the exclusion of another. The many parts of the body that you talk about references use of talents or gifts, not character traits. We can be the "eye", the "foot" or utilize whatever gift (talent) we are given, teaching, hospitality, administration, etc., but we must also be complete in character and not just be guided by justice without an equal sense of mercy, etc.
"I had assumed that even the Christian denominations that permitted self-defense did not glorify violence or the enjoyment of violence."
QUOTE From RPCVYemen....
Sadly, the biggest threat to Christianity comes from those who claim to be Christian but don't really understand that they are not. Hence, the true bride of Christ is grossly misunderstood in this world, just as He Himself was. The explanation is long, complicated, and probably best suited for another forum. Unfortunately, I am probably not the best person to explain it either.
"I had assumed that even the Christian denominations that permitted self-defense did not glorify violence or the enjoyment of violence."
QUOTE From RPCVYemen....
Sadly, the biggest threat to Christianity comes from those who claim to be Christian but don't really understand that they are not. Hence, the true bride of Christ is grossly misunderstood in this world, just as He Himself was. The explanation is long, complicated, and probably best suited for another forum. Unfortunately, I am probably not the best person to explain it either.
Hokkmike-
I believe you are referencing my post. And, unfortunately, you are misreading it. I never said each one does one or the other. I said we have tendencies towards them. I then said these are not wrong until they pursue one to the exclusion of another. i.e. I said although we may love mercy more or love justice more, we are not to neglect either.
And you will notice I spoke of being used as an instrument of Justice, Mercy, or Grace. We each have a different purpose as part of the body as an eye, a hand or a foot has a different purpose.
I believe you are referencing my post. And, unfortunately, you are misreading it. I never said each one does one or the other. I said we have tendencies towards them. I then said these are not wrong until they pursue one to the exclusion of another. i.e. I said although we may love mercy more or love justice more, we are not to neglect either.
And you will notice I spoke of being used as an instrument of Justice, Mercy, or Grace. We each have a different purpose as part of the body as an eye, a hand or a foot has a different purpose.
Naja
Member
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2263 -
"The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. 'The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor... The one is intended, the other is not.' " (emphasis mine)
Also, 2264 -
"Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow..."
and 2265 -
"Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the state."
Although I don't practice regularly, I agree on this issue. Defend yourself and those in your charge. Don't intentionally try to kill, but do what you have to to get the aggressor to stop.
I don't carry now, but I will once I've picked up my permit tomorrow.
2263 -
"The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. 'The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor... The one is intended, the other is not.' " (emphasis mine)
Also, 2264 -
"Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow..."
and 2265 -
"Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the state."
Although I don't practice regularly, I agree on this issue. Defend yourself and those in your charge. Don't intentionally try to kill, but do what you have to to get the aggressor to stop.
I don't carry now, but I will once I've picked up my permit tomorrow.
Sage of Seattle
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Thanks Arfin, I appreciate it.
Okay. My dad is a Lutheran minister and his dad was a Lutheran minister -- I would have been third generation if I had heard the calling, which many of you understand, I'm sure. I was raised Lutheran but strayed from the church after my confirmation -- I still am not much into group worship though I'll still attend church occasionally and I'll probably start attending more often soon.
My understanding is that Lutherans are pretty accepting of others and their beliefs mainly based on the assumption that everyone will go to Heaven no matter what a person's actions are in life. The belief stems from the idea that if Jesus died for our sins and we could do *something* in life that takes that blessing away from us (that we are bad so we go to hell) then Jesus died for nothing. Yes, we have choice in life, but those choices will not affect what Jesus did for us.
God's love is infinite and unknowable. So, is Hitler in Heaven, for example? Yes. According to my beliefs. Do I like it? No. Do I understand why? Nope. I won't ever understand and since I'm human, I have feelings of retribution, justice, and anger -- revenge even.
I choose to be moral and good and kind and just because I want to have a better relationship with God and other human beings. Not because I'm afraid of an angry God -- angry because I didn't follow some rules. Lutherans as a general rule, don't believe in the literalness of the bible. The bible, as I understand it, is a story -- a story telling of the relationship between mankind and God and not just a book of answers. In fact, I believe the bible raises more questions than it answers.
So. I Believe that it is moral and ethical to protect oneself and others from harm to whatever extent that we are able and not have to worry about God's blessing or what have you.
ETA: Someone must be telling me something because I lost all of what I was writing and had to throw together this response before heading off to class.
I'd still like to hear others' thoughts.
Okay. My dad is a Lutheran minister and his dad was a Lutheran minister -- I would have been third generation if I had heard the calling, which many of you understand, I'm sure. I was raised Lutheran but strayed from the church after my confirmation -- I still am not much into group worship though I'll still attend church occasionally and I'll probably start attending more often soon.
My understanding is that Lutherans are pretty accepting of others and their beliefs mainly based on the assumption that everyone will go to Heaven no matter what a person's actions are in life. The belief stems from the idea that if Jesus died for our sins and we could do *something* in life that takes that blessing away from us (that we are bad so we go to hell) then Jesus died for nothing. Yes, we have choice in life, but those choices will not affect what Jesus did for us.
God's love is infinite and unknowable. So, is Hitler in Heaven, for example? Yes. According to my beliefs. Do I like it? No. Do I understand why? Nope. I won't ever understand and since I'm human, I have feelings of retribution, justice, and anger -- revenge even.
I choose to be moral and good and kind and just because I want to have a better relationship with God and other human beings. Not because I'm afraid of an angry God -- angry because I didn't follow some rules. Lutherans as a general rule, don't believe in the literalness of the bible. The bible, as I understand it, is a story -- a story telling of the relationship between mankind and God and not just a book of answers. In fact, I believe the bible raises more questions than it answers.
So. I Believe that it is moral and ethical to protect oneself and others from harm to whatever extent that we are able and not have to worry about God's blessing or what have you.
ETA: Someone must be telling me something because I lost all of what I was writing and had to throw together this response before heading off to class.
I'd still like to hear others' thoughts.
Roswell 1847
member
Its always seems honorable to live by a code, unless that code demands that you ignore your most basic oligations.
The Laws of Nations are shared by all cultures, these are the basic oligations of the individual member of society towards his fellows and his fellows towards him.
I like how a single individual sayng that disabusing some @-hole of the notion that they can attack someone with impunity, especially when that notion comes from said @-hole's total ignorance and unfounded expectations as to how the prospective victim should react, is somehow a Glorification of Violence.
Read up on Nihilism once, not much to read really, a book on Nihlist philosophy is just a stack of blank pages. They would stand idly by and allow a child to be murdered and do nothing, not from fear of doing harm, but a determination to do nothing that affects the lives of other.
I haven't noticed any pacifists on this thread yet. Would anyone who would defend themselves if attacked expect someone else not to do so? Also, if they have developed some misguided ideal of how that other should react based on a basic misreading of the tenents of that person's belief system , just how much is their opinion worth?
The Laws of Nations are shared by all cultures, these are the basic oligations of the individual member of society towards his fellows and his fellows towards him.
I like how a single individual sayng that disabusing some @-hole of the notion that they can attack someone with impunity, especially when that notion comes from said @-hole's total ignorance and unfounded expectations as to how the prospective victim should react, is somehow a Glorification of Violence.
Read up on Nihilism once, not much to read really, a book on Nihlist philosophy is just a stack of blank pages. They would stand idly by and allow a child to be murdered and do nothing, not from fear of doing harm, but a determination to do nothing that affects the lives of other.
I haven't noticed any pacifists on this thread yet. Would anyone who would defend themselves if attacked expect someone else not to do so? Also, if they have developed some misguided ideal of how that other should react based on a basic misreading of the tenents of that person's belief system , just how much is their opinion worth?
takhtakaal
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Sage of Seattle said:
Hmm.
I thought Lutheranism was based on the idea that man is saved by faith alone?
Sage of Seattle
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takhtakaal, can you elaborate on what you mean?
takhtakaal
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Roswell 1847
member
It just occurred to me that those who have never had to defend themselves against and un provoked attack are much more critical than those who have had the experiance.
People around here don't play games, them what do seldom get very far.
Of course the world's a much different place than it was in the early 60's. More people learn all they think they'll ever need to know from watching TV.
Casually mentioning the outcome of one on one battles of long ago doesn't count as bragging in my book, speaking in broad terms about what you think you would do in a situation that you have yet to face comes a lot closer.
All the "Why I'd" in the world doesn't count for much. If you know your limitations you're a better man. I know that allowing someone to ride roughshod over me is something I've never let happen, and hopefully never will.
I can't remember ever striking anyone over a mere insult. If an insult looks to be the lead in to a yahoo trying to work themself up to attack then I will sometimes pre empt, I haven't been proven wrong on this point yet. Experiance in dealing with that sort teaches one to tell the difference.
People around here don't play games, them what do seldom get very far.
Of course the world's a much different place than it was in the early 60's. More people learn all they think they'll ever need to know from watching TV.
Casually mentioning the outcome of one on one battles of long ago doesn't count as bragging in my book, speaking in broad terms about what you think you would do in a situation that you have yet to face comes a lot closer.
All the "Why I'd" in the world doesn't count for much. If you know your limitations you're a better man. I know that allowing someone to ride roughshod over me is something I've never let happen, and hopefully never will.
I can't remember ever striking anyone over a mere insult. If an insult looks to be the lead in to a yahoo trying to work themself up to attack then I will sometimes pre empt, I haven't been proven wrong on this point yet. Experiance in dealing with that sort teaches one to tell the difference.
boalex207
Member
Really interesting thread. Thoughtful comments with a couple of notable exceptions. Nightwing's comments are spot on IMO.
Consider the church shootings of late......Some guy comes in and defames God's house and tries to kill his people. God has put me there, and has previously blessed me with the tool and skill to stop it.
I think I would rather answer to Him for responding to the shooter with violence, than allowing that situation to go on.
We are to be good stewards of what God has given us. What is more important of that than the safety of our family, friends, and home ?
I'm no Bible thumper, but among the many things I thank God for are the resources to own guns and train with them in hopes that I never have to shoot anybody.
And if I am wrong about all of this, may God forgive me.
Consider the church shootings of late......Some guy comes in and defames God's house and tries to kill his people. God has put me there, and has previously blessed me with the tool and skill to stop it.
I think I would rather answer to Him for responding to the shooter with violence, than allowing that situation to go on.
We are to be good stewards of what God has given us. What is more important of that than the safety of our family, friends, and home ?
I'm no Bible thumper, but among the many things I thank God for are the resources to own guns and train with them in hopes that I never have to shoot anybody.
And if I am wrong about all of this, may God forgive me.
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