Superpsy
Member
I often think of this verse as well...usually in conjunction with talking about the need to defend one's family.
All you GUN toting Christians...Chime in here
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ozarkhillbilly
Member
When Jesus said turn the other cheek he was also talking about being persecuted for his sake, for being a Christian. Anybody who says that you aren't suppose to protect yourself and the innocent have clearly never read the Bible.
Would Jesus carry a gun, who knows, not for protection though when you are the most powerful being in the..... well the most powerful being, then you do not need a gun for protection. No one could kill Jesus until he was ready to die. But his angles carry weapons, Genesis 3:24, Numbers 22:23 are two I can think of off the top of my head.
Would Jesus carry a gun, who knows, not for protection though when you are the most powerful being in the..... well the most powerful being, then you do not need a gun for protection. No one could kill Jesus until he was ready to die. But his angles carry weapons, Genesis 3:24, Numbers 22:23 are two I can think of off the top of my head.
Sans Authoritas
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Jesus wouldn't have carried a gun. Nor would he have done a lot of other things that other human beings can morally do: get married, become a millionaire, become a talented and famous musician, etc. He didn't refrain from it because he couldn't morally have done it, but because it was not part of his mission. He told those who murdered him that he could summon thousands of angels to defend him. But he chose not to.
Everyone's mission is different, we all have to strive to follow the same rule that he did in a perfect way: don't sin. I honestly don't know what Jesus would do in a lot of situations. I only know that he wouldn't sin.
-Sans Authoritas
Everyone's mission is different, we all have to strive to follow the same rule that he did in a perfect way: don't sin. I honestly don't know what Jesus would do in a lot of situations. I only know that he wouldn't sin.
-Sans Authoritas
grampster
Member
Interesting thread. You are all keeping it on The High Road. Good on ya.
zxcvbob
Member
Since others have already mentioned Luke 22:36, and that the 6th Commandment is better translated "Thou shall not murder", here's a couple of subtle ones:
In Nehemiah 4:9 (regarding the rebuilding of the wall around Jerusalem), it mentions that they trusted in the Lord, and posted a guard day and night, and in verse 14 "Remember the Lord who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, sons and daughters, your wives, and your homes."
Mark 3:27 ""No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house."
BTW, I like the Holy Roller = revolver enthusiast remark.
In Nehemiah 4:9 (regarding the rebuilding of the wall around Jerusalem), it mentions that they trusted in the Lord, and posted a guard day and night, and in verse 14 "Remember the Lord who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, sons and daughters, your wives, and your homes."
Mark 3:27 ""No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house."
BTW, I like the Holy Roller = revolver enthusiast remark.
My view has come from my mother. On a number of things, this religious woman has told me:
To every bird, God provides a worm. But he doesn't throw it in the nest."
I kinda have that view on personal protection as well.
Sure, its nice to have God around, but don't expect him to save your butt when you are too stupid to be prepared.
I'm just picturing some of us getting to the "Pearly Gates" and saying... "God, I thought you'd protect me from those thugs." And God responds... "Dude... you gotta give me something to work with."
-- John
To every bird, God provides a worm. But he doesn't throw it in the nest."
I kinda have that view on personal protection as well.
Sure, its nice to have God around, but don't expect him to save your butt when you are too stupid to be prepared.
I'm just picturing some of us getting to the "Pearly Gates" and saying... "God, I thought you'd protect me from those thugs." And God responds... "Dude... you gotta give me something to work with."
-- John
MaterDei
Member
Another Catholic here. This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say on the issue. Emphasis is mine.
SoCalShooter
Member
Well I am not christian more atheist/agnostic but I was indoctrinated for 10 years from kinder to 8th and I do think I have a pretty good handle on this.
In my belief and having read the bible several times over, overall I think the bible intends for Christians to stand up for themselves and to protect themselves, families and those who cannot defend themselves, it doesn't mean just Christians who are law enforcement of some type or military it means all Christians.
I do not believe however that turning the other cheek in a self defense situation is what it means either.
In my belief and having read the bible several times over, overall I think the bible intends for Christians to stand up for themselves and to protect themselves, families and those who cannot defend themselves, it doesn't mean just Christians who are law enforcement of some type or military it means all Christians.
I do not believe however that turning the other cheek in a self defense situation is what it means either.
The Canuck
Member
Christ wouldn't carry a gun? So I guess he didn't toss the money changers and maybe try to kill a few of them either. Why did he command his Disciples to carry swords when they went proselytizing then? In some translations of the bible Christ was quoted as saying if could, he would bring a cleansing fire to the eart and scour The Almighty's work of sin.
Christ was no wimp. He was a badass. He just saw no value in killing a man over mere words, the turn the other cheek comment was in regards to being insulted and Paul wanting to murder the offender, if I recall correctly.
Christ was no wimp. He was a badass. He just saw no value in killing a man over mere words, the turn the other cheek comment was in regards to being insulted and Paul wanting to murder the offender, if I recall correctly.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Very good thread so far. Sensible.
I'm not particularly religious one way or another, but several have touched on this concept, as follows:
E.g., Matre Dei quoted the Catholic Catechism:
Just as an example which brushes the concept I bring up:
I wondered if, while acting in pure defense, stopping (perhaps even killing) the aggressor might save the agressor from committing the sin of murdering you (or your family).
What are the spiritual implications for the aggressor?
I'm not particularly religious one way or another, but several have touched on this concept, as follows:
E.g., Matre Dei quoted the Catholic Catechism:
Just as an example which brushes the concept I bring up:
I wondered if, while acting in pure defense, stopping (perhaps even killing) the aggressor might save the agressor from committing the sin of murdering you (or your family).
What are the spiritual implications for the aggressor?
marksman13
Member
I just want to say thanks, first and foremost to all of you for keeping this civil. I really figured this thread would be locked in about ten minutes. I'll echo the comments of several other posters in that I believe the Bible not only authorizes Christians to defend themselves and others, but encourages it. We are supposed to protect each other. We are encouraged to protect our fellow man from those who would do him harm. No book I have ever read in the Bible has called for Christians to be wimps. I have never seen a chapter where God told His followers to cower at the feet of their enemies. Be strong. Be courageious. Those are the messages I cling to.
Wildfire
Member
My 2 cents.
Hey there:
We as christians are to resist the devil and evil. That does not include turning the other cheek.
Christ told peter to go sell his robe and get a sword because this very day he would have need of it. The weapon of the day. He did not instuck Peter to turn the other cheek.
He did not use Peter to chase away the Roman Guards but rather to prove to the guards who he was. he instructed Peter to do this becuase he knew Peter was the only one there that would use that sword. The others ran.
The word also says "The unarmed mans house will be taken" ....
We are to defend those that can not defend themselves. One of Gods main men killed 1000 men with the jaw bone of an ass. And was blessed not punished. His own people became masters of war and still are. The 6 day war should be proof that God was the one one that did this and not the might of their army. Pasifist are dangerous people and can get you killed. Even if they claim to be Christians.
Hey there:
We as christians are to resist the devil and evil. That does not include turning the other cheek.
Christ told peter to go sell his robe and get a sword because this very day he would have need of it. The weapon of the day. He did not instuck Peter to turn the other cheek.
He did not use Peter to chase away the Roman Guards but rather to prove to the guards who he was. he instructed Peter to do this becuase he knew Peter was the only one there that would use that sword. The others ran.
The word also says "The unarmed mans house will be taken" ....
We are to defend those that can not defend themselves. One of Gods main men killed 1000 men with the jaw bone of an ass. And was blessed not punished. His own people became masters of war and still are. The 6 day war should be proof that God was the one one that did this and not the might of their army. Pasifist are dangerous people and can get you killed. Even if they claim to be Christians.
Elza
Member
I would disagree, shdwfx. James says that faith without work is useless. I take that to mean that the Lord will make what we need available but we have to do our part as well. I can sit cross-legged in the middle of the floor and have all of the faith in the world that I’ll be fed. However I suspect that I would get rather hungry. I have to do my part and make use of what He has made available to me. While the phrase “The Lord helps those who help themselves” isn’t a direct Biblical quote it is an accurate paraphrase of what James teaches us.
I apply this same line of reasoning to protecting myself and family. If I curl up in the fetal position and hope that the Lord will protect me from the bad guys I suspect that I’m going to get the snot kicked out of me. If I stand up and make use of the strength, tools, and skills He has given me I’ll do alright.
BruceRDucer
Member
Hey Malakas07
" Live by the sword die by the sword"
Hey Malakas:
the pastor is offering you a simplistic quote as a Discernment in a complicated issue. All of the words have precise and very "loaded" meanings; but he's in error.
(1) "live by the sword"
I doubt if you "live by" your gun. You "live by" honest work. You aren't using your gun to rob people and "live by" the gun. Your gun is not what you "live by". It is a last resort only for extreme need.
(2) "How you should turn the other cheek"
This is about the man who would "smite" you on the cheek, or literally to SLAP you. It isn't about a man who threatens to SMITE your entire body, which is to kill you. You can permit a man to SLAP you if you wish, but you are NOT obligated to allow a man to unlawfully murder you using a weapon.
You might point out to the pastor that the Christians in the Sudan are being systematically wiped out through murder, terror, rape and so on, precisely because their communities have no weapons for self defense.
(2A) We can choose to be "martyred" for the faith; but if someone is not persecuting you FOR your faith, what's the point to stupidly stand by and allow someone to murder you outside the context of religious persecution? There is not justification for that.
(3) The issue that always arises is the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill".
So much for the English word kill. When the Commandment is read in the original Hebrew in which it is written, the word means "thou shalt not MURDER" rather than "thou shalt not kill". Killing is authorized in self defense. There's a difference.
These are just a few thoughts; but they may not convince him. People need to desire to actually think things through beyond simplistic understandings, to find the discernment, the wisdom in a matter.
At any rate, don't let yourself begin to doubt. Good people all over the country, are safe today, because YOU are prepared to protect innocent lives of children, women, and men in the normal conduct of their daily lives. Right now, we need good men like you.
" Live by the sword die by the sword"
Hey Malakas:
the pastor is offering you a simplistic quote as a Discernment in a complicated issue. All of the words have precise and very "loaded" meanings; but he's in error.
(1) "live by the sword"
I doubt if you "live by" your gun. You "live by" honest work. You aren't using your gun to rob people and "live by" the gun. Your gun is not what you "live by". It is a last resort only for extreme need.
(2) "How you should turn the other cheek"
This is about the man who would "smite" you on the cheek, or literally to SLAP you. It isn't about a man who threatens to SMITE your entire body, which is to kill you. You can permit a man to SLAP you if you wish, but you are NOT obligated to allow a man to unlawfully murder you using a weapon.
You might point out to the pastor that the Christians in the Sudan are being systematically wiped out through murder, terror, rape and so on, precisely because their communities have no weapons for self defense.
(2A) We can choose to be "martyred" for the faith; but if someone is not persecuting you FOR your faith, what's the point to stupidly stand by and allow someone to murder you outside the context of religious persecution? There is not justification for that.
(3) The issue that always arises is the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill".
So much for the English word kill. When the Commandment is read in the original Hebrew in which it is written, the word means "thou shalt not MURDER" rather than "thou shalt not kill". Killing is authorized in self defense. There's a difference.
These are just a few thoughts; but they may not convince him. People need to desire to actually think things through beyond simplistic understandings, to find the discernment, the wisdom in a matter.
At any rate, don't let yourself begin to doubt. Good people all over the country, are safe today, because YOU are prepared to protect innocent lives of children, women, and men in the normal conduct of their daily lives. Right now, we need good men like you.
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Tom Fury
Member
Thanks for continuing to reason...
Thru this potentially hot button. I like many things I have heard and have learned some new stuff.
Like Ne. 4:9 ref; never saw that one before.
Agree with sans authoritas; Its' impossible to understand Jesus without understanding He was the most mission intensive being who has ever existed (except for the rest of the trinity...).
Point to Luke 11:21; a good preacher never introduces an idea easily twisted or misconstrued; if it wasn't a fairly obvious principle, He wouldn't have gone there.
In Genesis 1:28 God instructs man to rule (radah: have dominion) and subdue (kabash) the earth; these are in Hebrew words that suggest "rule over that which will be ruled" and "subdue that which will not..." They are commanded Gen 2:15 to cultivate and "keep" (which is "Shamar"; verb: to guard): To put a hedge of protection around the garden. In Gen 3:24, the same word is used to describe the angel who is assigned keep them out after the fall. Gods' heart is that what is good should not be spoiled. Because that is Gods' heart, he sent Jesus to be and do as mentioned.
Protection and stewardship of life have been Godly roles assigned to redeemed and unredeemed man since day one. It's in the DNA, and its' one of the first things most of us would agree with God about (whether we believe in Him or not, it operates; frankly, I see it as a gift).
Making a hard and fast rule about self defense being biblical or not is kind of difficult if you don't fold it into the rest of the gospel. The gospel is designed to restore man to a relationship with God in which he has a right to expect divine protection, especially in certain circumstances (Paul and the snake among other things). It's entirely possible still within the boundaries of free will to place yourself in situations by your own choice, where the grace of God doesn't extend; and then brother, you're on your own.
I tend to think that qualifies as living by the sword.
So if you expect God to protect you, I might ask; why? That faith is based on a relationship. Gotta get a bit theological here; If knowing God is something you don't think is important, its' a lot like being mugged on the day you left your Colt in the safe...
I also have problems with evangelicals who teach that this life is anything but a fight everyday, even if a fight of faith. Satan is a real and vicious enemy, who will not be defeated by anything but the most exotic combat mindset you can imagine; Had Paul seen Last Man Standing when he wrote in 1 Cor. 6:7 about "...weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left..."? Jesus always knew exactly who He was and exactly what He was doin'.
And He never ran. Never from anything or anyone. His Disciples should be the same.
I have been places as a missionary where the local government sent armed guards with us...
Yeah; the weapons of our warfare are spiritual, not carnal (Paul again), but those are the mission specific ones; but a warrior mindset is entirely biblical.
Just remember who the enemy is; we end up in the "Serve and protect" role quite clearly and cleanly.
I am also painfully aware of Revelation 21:8; Cowards don't make it in the Kingdom.
In Matthew 28 Jesus give his disciples authority to carry on His mission in the earth; In Acts 1:8 He gives them the power to do so.
The badge and the gun, if you like; I find it a handy parallel.
There is nothing in the gospel to rule guns and SD in or out I think. Like a lot of things in scripture, it depends on your faith; which is based on who you know and whats' between you; trying to use scripture to rule in or out tends to obscure this. If you're a disciple, what is He saying to you?
I would not carry or pick up a weapon on a mission trip to defend myself; I do know I have a right and reason to expect supernatural protection there, or anywhere I am "on business" and have experienced it several times. Having experienced it to be real, I dare not trust anything else.
I still hate snakes...
Two minas
Cheers, TF
Thru this potentially hot button. I like many things I have heard and have learned some new stuff.
Like Ne. 4:9 ref; never saw that one before.
Agree with sans authoritas; Its' impossible to understand Jesus without understanding He was the most mission intensive being who has ever existed (except for the rest of the trinity...).
Point to Luke 11:21; a good preacher never introduces an idea easily twisted or misconstrued; if it wasn't a fairly obvious principle, He wouldn't have gone there.
In Genesis 1:28 God instructs man to rule (radah: have dominion) and subdue (kabash) the earth; these are in Hebrew words that suggest "rule over that which will be ruled" and "subdue that which will not..." They are commanded Gen 2:15 to cultivate and "keep" (which is "Shamar"; verb: to guard): To put a hedge of protection around the garden. In Gen 3:24, the same word is used to describe the angel who is assigned keep them out after the fall. Gods' heart is that what is good should not be spoiled. Because that is Gods' heart, he sent Jesus to be and do as mentioned.
Protection and stewardship of life have been Godly roles assigned to redeemed and unredeemed man since day one. It's in the DNA, and its' one of the first things most of us would agree with God about (whether we believe in Him or not, it operates; frankly, I see it as a gift).
Making a hard and fast rule about self defense being biblical or not is kind of difficult if you don't fold it into the rest of the gospel. The gospel is designed to restore man to a relationship with God in which he has a right to expect divine protection, especially in certain circumstances (Paul and the snake among other things). It's entirely possible still within the boundaries of free will to place yourself in situations by your own choice, where the grace of God doesn't extend; and then brother, you're on your own.
I tend to think that qualifies as living by the sword.
So if you expect God to protect you, I might ask; why? That faith is based on a relationship. Gotta get a bit theological here; If knowing God is something you don't think is important, its' a lot like being mugged on the day you left your Colt in the safe...
I also have problems with evangelicals who teach that this life is anything but a fight everyday, even if a fight of faith. Satan is a real and vicious enemy, who will not be defeated by anything but the most exotic combat mindset you can imagine; Had Paul seen Last Man Standing when he wrote in 1 Cor. 6:7 about "...weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left..."? Jesus always knew exactly who He was and exactly what He was doin'.
And He never ran. Never from anything or anyone. His Disciples should be the same.
I have been places as a missionary where the local government sent armed guards with us...
Yeah; the weapons of our warfare are spiritual, not carnal (Paul again), but those are the mission specific ones; but a warrior mindset is entirely biblical.
Just remember who the enemy is; we end up in the "Serve and protect" role quite clearly and cleanly.
I am also painfully aware of Revelation 21:8; Cowards don't make it in the Kingdom.
In Matthew 28 Jesus give his disciples authority to carry on His mission in the earth; In Acts 1:8 He gives them the power to do so.
The badge and the gun, if you like; I find it a handy parallel.
There is nothing in the gospel to rule guns and SD in or out I think. Like a lot of things in scripture, it depends on your faith; which is based on who you know and whats' between you; trying to use scripture to rule in or out tends to obscure this. If you're a disciple, what is He saying to you?
I would not carry or pick up a weapon on a mission trip to defend myself; I do know I have a right and reason to expect supernatural protection there, or anywhere I am "on business" and have experienced it several times. Having experienced it to be real, I dare not trust anything else.
I still hate snakes...
Two minas
Cheers, TF
Good thread all. The perspective is especially enhanced by the contribution of both Christians and non-Christians.
I'm a conservative Christian and have armed myself and my family for many of the excellent reasons posted above. I've also hunted and shot competitively.
FWIW, 80% of USA citizens describe themselves as Christians. I'm thankful that the Christian faith calls us to protect ourselves, our families, and our country. If Christians felt they should not own guns, it would be a sorry state of affairs.
Also, it is recognized that America is becoming increasingly un-Christian and even anti-Christian with every passing year – from its culture, to its laws, its public education system, its news media and most other major institutions. All of us at THR know how guns have been impacted by our culture, laws,schools, media,etc. Whether Christian or not, our values are changing. If we can remove God from our society, I have no doubt that the 2A is vulnerable.
It's worth repeating that ...
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
Also:
"The education problem in the USA is most evident each time her citizens vote."
I'm a conservative Christian and have armed myself and my family for many of the excellent reasons posted above. I've also hunted and shot competitively.
FWIW, 80% of USA citizens describe themselves as Christians. I'm thankful that the Christian faith calls us to protect ourselves, our families, and our country. If Christians felt they should not own guns, it would be a sorry state of affairs.
Also, it is recognized that America is becoming increasingly un-Christian and even anti-Christian with every passing year – from its culture, to its laws, its public education system, its news media and most other major institutions. All of us at THR know how guns have been impacted by our culture, laws,schools, media,etc. Whether Christian or not, our values are changing. If we can remove God from our society, I have no doubt that the 2A is vulnerable.
It's worth repeating that ...
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
Also:
"The education problem in the USA is most evident each time her citizens vote."
BruceRDucer
Member
Hey Alexd!
"Jesus wouldn't carry a gun."---Alexd
(1) Jesus was destined to be martyred. Self Defense was not the issue for the Messiah
(2) If Jesus wouldn't, then do you carry or own?
(3) If you don't carry or own, then you are here to push a strictly "religious" agenda, but not to express our common advocacy for the 2nd Amendment Rights.
In other words, if you are entirely hostile to our common purpose, I want to know. If you do support our advocacy, and you own, you've just contradicted yourself by logic.
Which of these is fact about your position?
"Jesus wouldn't carry a gun."---Alexd
(1) Jesus was destined to be martyred. Self Defense was not the issue for the Messiah
(2) If Jesus wouldn't, then do you carry or own?
(3) If you don't carry or own, then you are here to push a strictly "religious" agenda, but not to express our common advocacy for the 2nd Amendment Rights.
In other words, if you are entirely hostile to our common purpose, I want to know. If you do support our advocacy, and you own, you've just contradicted yourself by logic.
Which of these is fact about your position?
Deadheadted37
Member
Would Jesus have carried a gun?
I dont know but he was known to carry a staff.
I dont know but he was known to carry a staff.
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beaucoup ammo
Member
Great discussion! I'm going to bring this up at church tomorrow. The topic really begs to be hashed over. I'm also very proud of the High Road taken on this!
It could have easily gone the other way..outstanding!
It could have easily gone the other way..outstanding!
doc540
Member
And then there's always Medal of Honor winner, Pfc Desmond Doss.
sure makes me go "hmmmmmmm..."
sure makes me go "hmmmmmmm..."
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" Jesus.
If I were about to injure an innocent person without cause, then I would hope that someone would use the necessary means to stop me. Therefore, I carry, because I take "doing unto others" to heart
If I were about to injure an innocent person without cause, then I would hope that someone would use the necessary means to stop me. Therefore, I carry, because I take "doing unto others" to heart
In the 22nd chapter of Luke, when Jesus tells his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword, He wasn't talking about slicing bread. He was telling them to have the means to protect themselves. In today's world, that equates to having a gun.
BruceRDucer
Member
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" Jesus.
If I were about to injure an innocent person without cause, then I would hope that someone would use the necessary means to stop me. Therefore, I carry, because I take "doing unto others" to heart---Markmc753
Excellent logic Mark. It stands in stark contrast with any alternative ideas that serve simply to paralyze our thought and actions into some kind of a ...............................DO-NOTHINGISM.
(sorry, I couldn't think of a proper 39 cent word)
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