Chrome Silicon Wire..... the future of gunsprings!?

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The reason why this spring stuff is so interesting to me is that from when I first got into guns until just a few years ago, I bought all of this aftermarket 'upgrade' stuff hook-line-and sinker. I thought I needed to remove my brand new factory springs and barrels and replace them with aftermarket parts. Now I only replace things when testing shows an advantage and I am all about factory barrels and original parts now.

I am simulating both the Wolff and ISMI 16# spring specs you listed and doing it with them both the same material to see how just the spring form differs.

The Wolff is giving 70% of tensile when compressed to 1.62 inches. Load says 16.0 lbs. Stress is 178176. This is if it is 31 total coils and 1 dead coil.

ISMI. I cannot be sure if you are saying it has the same number of coils as the Wolff but I think you are. So all I am doing is changing the wire diameter and adding 1/2 inch of length. Stress goes up to 191757 which is 75% of tensile. Load is 16.6#

Now if you meant to say the ISMI has one more coil than the Wolff, then it is 16.1# load and 185571 stress and that is 73% of tensile. This seems more likely.

I would say if one is doing better than the other it likely has to do with heat-treat and stress relieving. Maybe ISMI just did a better job of that part. Or maybe their shot peening made the difference.
 
Sorry for the confusion. The ISMI 16# has 32 coils with a closed coil on one end so call it 31 active coils - same as the Wolff but it is .044 wire and has a 1/2" longer free length.

The 18# ISMI has 30 coils of .044 wire with a closed coil on one end so call it 29 active coils and it is also 1/2" longer than the Wolff free length.

Free length is after initial set.

Your calculations are in pretty good agreement with my spring tester which is probably only accurate to +-1/2# at best.

What seems to happen is the music wire springs gradually get shorter over time and after an initial set the ISMI springs do not. If the music wire is near the low end of expected tensile strength and the CS wire is at the high end that might account for the difference.

Both Wolff and ISMI claim to use certified material but who knows what the cert is.
 
On a different note, one reason I have been using the ISMI springs in my 1911s is they seem to be more consistent over time (cycles). To me that is a good thing.

On the other hand I use Wolff mag springs in 1911s and Glocks and have mags that have been loaded since 1994 and emptied once or twice a year and they are fine. I can't say that for the factory mag springs (Glock, Wilson, Metalform, McCormick etc).
 
Can you build a cycle machine that uses an electric motor to spin a wheel and convert that to linear motion and cycle the springs to 1.625 inches 100,000 times each? You can measure every brand standard spring before and after the test for load (not sure length matters -- only load at operating length).

Whatever the outcome, I would attribute it to the tensile strength on the cert, the spring form, and the heat-treat / stress relieve more than the alloy. But at least everyone would know what spring to buy.
 
At least based on that particular batch of springs.

Color me a skeptic when it comes to consistency although I have to say Wolff and ISMI seem to be pretty good.
 
As to your question regarding the testing machine, yes I can build such a machine and conduct the tests if someone wants to pay for it.
 
I have read on this, and other forums, about 1911 pistol magazines being left loaded for over 40 years and they function just fine. Do we have enough experience with these springs to positively prove they are an improvement? Just curious.
 
The myth of the chrome-silicon gun spring ‘not taking a set.’


It is NOT true that chrome silicon magazine springs are more resistant to taking a set than all stainless steel or music wire. I wish I could say that I am surprised this false marketing claim took hold, but sadly in the past I believed it as well. That is, until I researched it.

Springs have a characteristic called the proportional limit. When you compress a spring, you add stress. When the spring deforms, that is strain. Normally there is a proportional ratio between stress and strain. If you continue to deform the spring past a certain point, this ratio is no longer proportional and you have reached the limit for taking a permanent deformation (set). For three types of springs commonly used in guns, Music Wire (ASTM A228), Chrome-Silicon Valve Spring Quality (ASTM A877), and 17-7 PH stainless - the stress limit is 45% of the minimum tensile strength on the material certification.

For music wire, the range of the tensile strength property is 230-399 KSI. For chrome silicon, it is 235-300 KSI. For 17-7 PH, it is 235-335 KSI.

http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/properties_of_common_spring_materials.pdf

One cannot make a general statement about any of these materials without knowing the exact tensile strength of the specific material the spring maker used. You can see they have overlapping strengths, so without further information, they can be considered about the same.

One brand may make a better choice on post-winding stress relieving, or some post-processing such as shot peening, but one thing is clear – the BEST music wire is stronger than the BEST chrome-silicon. This is because with the higher tensile strength, 45% of that will be a higher stress value that one can impart before there is disproportionate strain resulting in a permanent set. Music wire wins the ‘resistance from set’ argument.

So why does chrome silicon exist? Music wire is limited to 250 degrees F. In a car engine, the temperature exceeds that. Chrome silicon wire is used for valve springs for this reason. It is more resistant to taking a set AT TEMPS ABOVE 250 degrees. Needless to say, firearm magazine springs do not reach this temperature and recoil springs likely never will either (AR extractor springs may). And if you want to go above the 475 degree F limit of chrome silicon, there are stainless alloys. They cost more, but have similarly high proportional limits as chrome silicon.

There is also an issue of fatigue strength. This is the ability to resist damage that occurs from cycle loading. Cycles are often measured in thousands or millions, and are not that important for magazine springs. They are important for recoil springs. Does chrome silicon wire outperform music wire for fatigue strength? No, it is worse. Music wire has a cleaner surface – and surface defects can reduce fatigue strength.

http://tinyurl.com/c9hdqu

“Music Wire:
Due to superior surface quality, these can withstand higher stresses under repeated loading than any other spring material.”

http://www.centuryspring.com/pdfs/techfaqs.pdf

“14. What are the best materials for fatigue applications?

The two most popular materials for fatigue applications today are Music Wire (ASTM A228) and Chrome-Silicon Valve Spring Quality (ASTM A877). At wire sizes below approximately 0.080" (2.0 mm), Music Wire offers higher tensile strength; however, Music Wire’s maximum service temperature is less than that of Chrome-Silicon.

… processing of music wire is done in a manner to provide a finished surface with smaller allowed defects than hard drawn wire. Since surface defects are one of the most common initiation sites for fatigue cracks in springs, smaller surface defects (and their corresponding reduction in stress concentration) enable music wire to be used in high cycle fatigue applications.”

The way one designs a spring to not take a set is to physically not allow it to deform in a way where the stress exceeds the proportional limit. This may mean designing a pistol magazine to only take 12 rounds rather than 13, or add more coils to the spring, or use thicker wire, or use flat wire, or increase the OD. A properly designed system will allow for a fully loaded magazine to sit for over 100 years, or for an action to remain locked open without the recoil spring taking a set. Are some platform magazines improperly designed? Most certainly, but no one has seems to identify which ones.

What about tests that prove chrome silicon gun springs take less of a set than music wire or stainless steel? I have seen a few tests and they prove no such thing. They are often done with different wire diameters, free lengths, number of coils, shot peening, stress relieving, and heat treatment. It is impossible to know if each spring was properly made. One does not need to do a test to know which alloy has a higher proportional limit as that is well known and defined in engineering texts. However, one can do tests to show if a specific brand spring is better than another specific brand spring but it would NOT be just because they replaced stainless or music wire with chrome silicon. So search for a quality spring, but don’t go by alloy alone.

So what is the ultimate magazine-spring material? Since all three have similar resistance to taking a set given the same wireform, one needs to look at cost, corrosion resistance, and temperature resistance. Temp resistance is not a factor and fatigue life is usually not either. Corrosion resistance is a strong factor. Cost is a factor for large production but not individual enthusiasts. 17-7 PH seems to win.

What is the ultimate recoil spring? Again all three have three have similar resistance to taking a set given the same wireform, In some applications, the 250 degree F limit of music wire is not an issue (handguns). In some (belt feds), it may be. If a pistol design allows for enough room to have a wireform where the ratio of stress to tensile strength stays low, then one may go with 17-4 PH to pick up corrosion resistance. If the design, as is true with a 1911, is one of high stress and yet temp is not a factor, then music wire seems to be best (I believe this is what Wolff uses). If the application is such where temps may get over 250 degrees F (either through combustion or simply through spring cycling) and there are high stress and fatigue considerations, such as an AR15 extractor spring, then chrome silicon would seem best. And if the temp gets really hot, such as in a gas block part, then 17-7 would be good.

For any spring, proper heat treat / stress relief and shot peening will increase the limits.

When you see a gun spring company claim chrome silicon is 1000 times more resistant to taking a set than music wire or stainless (yes I have seen this claim), you should ask them to prove it. They can’t, because it is not true. No non-gun based spring company seems to make that claim.
 
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Statement: http://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/

"Because of the properties of music wire; it cannot be heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after the spring is wound."

Reality:

Music wire gets it strength from being cold worked and does not require heat-treat after forming. It must be stress relieved. One does not shot-peen music wire because it already has a perfect surface finish from the cold-drawing process.

"Per dwg 5013200 Rock Island Arsenal, Dept of the Army, 1 May 1928:
d = .043, OD = .430, free length = 6.55, active coils = 29, total coils = 30
8.00# @length of 3.72"
3.55# @length of 1.81"
2.88 #/inch
solid length = 1.375
music wire, qq-W-470
Stress relieve 20 minutes @450F after forming"


http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/finish.html

"Spring wire that gets bent has to have the bending stress relieved. Here are the stress relief guidelines for all common spring wire materials. Music wire, 500 degrees F for one hour"
 
interesting thread...it appears to have risen from the ashes :)

I have noticed the Wolff spring take a set on first cycling, which tells me they aren't preset. rsilvers' Calculations agree with that scenario, as the stress at 60% will mean taking a set when it is first compressed to solid.

Presetting is commonly done on large suspension springs, where they are run long and pressed solid, or at least past the maximum deflection in service. It effectively increases the load carrying ability of a spring, leaving in place a beneficial residual stess. Perhaps ISMI is doing that process, so they don't settle on the first cycle, like the Wolffs. It is somewhat rare for small springs to get preset, as the process adds a fair amount of cost, percentage-wise to the spring.

ISMI claiming that music wire cannot be shot peened or stess relieved is just plain silly:neener:

Up above someone touched on the "compression wave". Some of the textbooks make reference to impact loading of a spring increasing stresses beyond what is calculated by static deflection. Perhaps that is why recoil springs can get tired over time.

Sometime back I ran across the exact dimension for the full compression of a 1911 recoil spring. Anyone have reference to that dimension? I am still half thinking I should start a gunspring company :evil:
 
1.62 inches at full recoil.

The preset theory is interesting. What is funny is when people do their experiments to prove CS will take less of a set and fail to consider that they may just be stressed at rest. This would be related to a post op and not the alloy.
 
Fundamentals of Spring Design from the Spring Manufacture's Institute, page 13, table SM-8 -- 17-7 PH stainless steel costs 2.75 times as much as Chrome Silicon valve-grade ASTM A401 in mill quantities.
 
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