Chronographs useless?

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lonecat

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As I am researching to buy a new chronograph, I see most of them have +/- 0.5% or +/- 0.25% accuracy. This means for a 3000FPS projectile. The measurement error could be +/- 15 FPS (For 1000 FPS rounds, the error is +/- 5FPS). I also see quite a few online videos showing their range testing using chronos with results of SD ~ 30 or even smaller. How on earth can you rely on those data if the device's own error is in the same magnitude? How do you know those SDs were contributed by the velocities of the bullets rather than the device itself?

Unless I am completely lost in the specs or I misplaced some decimal points somewhere :), I think the chronos are just useless, no? Maybe some new tech will give order-of-magtude better accuracy regarding speed measuring?
 
15FPS error in 3000FPS bullet. This error is allowable for at least 10x error in the subject you are measuring, meaning if your velocity error is 150+ FPS then the error of the device can be ignored to some extent. Do you think 150+ FPS variation in 3000 FPS bullet is valuable for you?
 
If your getting a 150 FPS difference. Your doing something wrong.
Exactly. You are not getting 150+ FPS in 3000 FPS bullet. You need like 20-30 FPS diff to be a good reload, which proves the chronos cannot help to verify if your bullet velocity variations are correct or not. You just proved my point!
 
Welcome to THR Lonecat. Good to have you on board. Never mind on my post. Deleted. Other posts came on line after I wrote mine but before I posted
 
As I am researching to buy a new chronograph, I see most of them have +/- 0.5% or +/- 0.25% accuracy. This means for a 3000FPS projectile. The measurement error could be +/- 15 FPS (For 1000 FPS rounds, the error is +/- 5FPS). I also see quite a few online videos showing their range testing using chronos with results of SD ~ 30 or even smaller. How on earth can you rely on those data if the device's own error is in the same magnitude? How do you know those SDs were contributed by the velocities of the bullets rather than the device itself?

Unless I am completely lost in the specs or I misplaced some decimal points somewhere :), I think the chronos are just useless, no? Maybe some new tech will give order-of-magtude better accuracy regarding speed measuring?
They give me an ideas on velocity to start a dope chart. As far as for finding an accurate load. It's useless.
 
I use my chrony about half for fun and half to help analyze a load. For fun because I find it interesting how my loads compare and for help analyzing to help me determine the quality/consistency of my loads and components ("bad" powder or primers?).

But how would one check the accuracy? Shoot some 22 lr or factory loads? We all know that factory velocity specs are rarely correct, as most real life velocities are lower than advertised...
 
I find them handy. Since the madness started it’s been difficult to find the exact components for a specific load that are listed in reloading manuals.

The Chrony gives me another Data point to evaluate as I work up loads for which I have no published/reputable data.

Additionally, it came in particularly handy while working up heavy loads (120-130 grain lead bullets) in the .327FM. It was interesting to see the effects various barrel lengths and position of powder in the case had on SD and FPS.
 
If you want the highest level of accuracy you have to pay for the most accurate equipment. If you only want to spend $100 you might have to deal with a piece of equipment that guarantees +/- .5%. If you want +/- .1% level of accuracy buy a Labradar for $599.

I have loads that are consistently in the single digit SD range with my Labradar.
 
A few thoughts on this:

1) Magnetospeed V3 offers accuracy between 99.5-99.9%, so 3-15% on a 3000fps load.

2) At 1,000yrds, 15fps on my 6 Creed, which runs about 3000fps, would only elicit only 2” difference in elevation as gross potential error, BUT when combined with other errors, the statistical influence on real world groups of 15fps spread is really less than 1/2”.

3) Accuracy and precision aren’t necessarily the same thing. Lots of guys develop loads on lower accuracy units, with single digit SD’s, but then have to make slight offsets in their ballistic engine to correct/true their inputs to their observed DOPE. Most guys using LR’s and MS’s don’t have to do so, and rather only true on ballistic coefficient.

So no, chronographs, even cheap ones, are not useless.
 
Have you ever put 10 of your reloads through a caliber sized hole on a windless day at whatever yardage you like to shoot? If not, a 0.5% accurate chrono isn’t holding you back. Sounds like nit picking just for the sake of nit picking. ;)
 
For most people 30-50 fps variance at the muzzle isn't enough to matter if you're calculating trajectory. There are very few people or rifles accurate enough to show the difference. As stated above, 1/2" to 2" at 1000 yards just isn't important. Especially when you consider most people couldn't shoot a 10" group at 1000 yards.

Using chronograph data to calculate trajectory is a secondary goal for me. It is nice to know and knowing it will get you close enough at extended ranges. You still have to actually shoot at those ranges and adjust sights.
 
I use my chrony about half for fun and half to help analyze a load.
I've actually shot my Sheridan pump-up pellet rifle over my chronograph on the back porch just to find out how many fps each additional "pump" added to the velocity of the pellet - I started at 3 pumps and went to 10 pumps.
I don't remember now everything I found out, but I do remember the increases in velocities were fairly linear with each additional pump. And I had so much fun doing the test, I think I'll do it again. :D
 
As an engineer, there's more to this than just the raw numbers being "accurate".

It's like the difference between "accuracy" and "precision" when shooting. In shooting, "accuracy" is how close you are to the intended target (like the bullseye on the target). "Precision", however, is how close multiple impacts are to each other.

For a chronograph, there's "accuracy", which is how close to the actual velocity of a projectile the readouts are; and then there's "repeatability", which is the range of variation in results when performing the same action. I'm sure there are statistical terms which could be applied here...like "mean", "average", "absolute", "maximum", "minimum", etc.

If you're really interested in accuracy, then you'd have to have your instrument calibrated against some standard. And even then, other local factors could influence this.

I'm not a reloader (yet), but as an engineer I can point out that "repeatability" will give you very meaningful information in your reloading efforts.

What you are ultimately looking for when reloading is producing a load which gives you reliable, repeatable, and acceptable terminal ballistics. The load cycles in your gun with no issues, it doesn't tumble, it hits the target down range with an acceptable accuracy and precision, the round expands adequately (if hollowpoint), etc.

For any given loading (bullet, powder, primer, cartridge, firearm combination) which produces these acceptable characteristics, there will be some spread of bullet velocities associated with it. So long as you use the same chronograph, those numbers will mean something to you.

So, if you use bullet X, powder Y at Z amount, and so forth, everything you load this way should produce a fairly consistent velocity.

If you want to increase the velocity for more performance, then you change something...like the powder or the powder loading. You do this incrementally, while observing the chronograph results and the terminal ballistics. If you get to a point where the bullet holes in the target aren't looking right, then you know that exceeding that particular velocity AS SHOWN ON YOUR CHRONOGRAPH is a limit for that combination of loading factors.

This will serve you quite well as a reloader.

However, if you should manage to shoot your chronograph one day and need to buy a new one (which I understand happens now and again), then your new chronograph might produce readings a little higher or lower on average than your old one. Whether this is enough to make a significant difference depends on how much they differ.

If you get a new chronograph, then you'd need to do some comparisons and see what the difference is. Regardless, that difference would only be used as a guide in your reloading anyway, because as you go forward you'll be developing loads based on your new chronograph's data just as you did with your previous one.


The only way around this is having your chronographs calibrated against some standard, just like for torque wrenches, multimeters, calipers, micrometers, etc. THEN you can lay claim to a known accuracy and compare values from one chronograph to another.
 
I can’t think of anything that doesn’t have an error margin of + or - a percentage. As for SD, I would certainly contribute that to the cartridge rather than the chrono.

For the most part, I use my chronograph to duplicate factory loads and for that it works like a champ.
 
Every tool has its purpose. Like a digital scale, they have their purpose and the cheap one's are not that accurate. But if used right, they can be consistent and make some accurate measurements, even though the tolerance of the accuracy is low.

I have a cheap Caldwell chronograph and I use when developing a load. I use to check my velocity compared to the book max load velocity (knowing the difference in barrel length and other factors come into play). If everything is set up consistent, when I shoot a 5 shot string, the chronograph is pretty consistent and I can get a feel for if the load is accurate and not much deviation in the velocity. I might shoot about 1" at 100 yards and have 10 - 15 fps variance on the chronograph. If the load is within about 200 fps of the max velocity in the book, I think I have found a good load and will further try to perfect it. Another load, I might shoot 1" at 100 yards and the variance might be 30 - 40 fps. I might of gotten lucky on that one. I will try that one again and it might be 1 - 2" the next time.

The chronograph is just another tool to help you to better determine what is working for you. Some days it all comes together and you record that load as a success. Some days it doesn't and it's like you almost have to start all over. That is part of the hobby. Those tools can help you eliminate those bad (and lucky) loads.
 
I tend to use a chronograph to find the point of diminishing returns. At some point adding powder stops adding velocity but it never stops adding heat or pressure. That’s the point where you’ve gone too far and need to back off. I also like them for downrange velocity checks but that’s how I’ve lost a few cheap Chrony chronographs. They’re a tool. Used right they have value; used wrong they cost more than they’re worth.
 
At some point adding powder stops adding velocity but it never stops adding heat or pressure.

I find this exceptionally interesting - Would you mind mentioning which specific cartridges and powders for which you’ve found these velocity plateaus?
 
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