Church Group mayhem...

[mr.trooper]

As we read in proverbs: "The Lord preserves the simple"

 

[hso]

I've seen all sorts of "groups" show up at ranges and behave in any imaginable way. Church groups that were safe and those that were unsafe. Business groups on "team building" outings, Mens' groups, Womens' groups, any group who haven't been properly prepped by a knowledgeable leader. The only group I've never seen act like jerks on the range were Scouts. They've been uniformly disciplined.

 

[RPCVYemen]

I am not sure that I would judge church youth groups too harshly. It seems to me that a lot of parents involvement in religious groups is "drop 'em off/pick 'em up".

Recently I was asked to speak about the fundamentals of Judaism to a high school group at a local (very conservative) Southern Baptist church near me. I asked the "youth ministers" (theology students from a local seminary) if the students were biblically literate. The ministers explained that of course the students were biblically literate, this church believes in inerrancy, etc.

So I started the talk by discussing some of Jewish laws/ritual items, and how some of those were reflected in their tradition - in the miracles of Jesus of Nazareth. I started with a Talmudic legends about tsitsit, and mentioned to them that the common translation of tsitsit was "hem", and asked if the hem of a garment played any part in a miracle in their tradition. The kids looked at me blankly. The ministers were red-faced. I talked about Sukkot, when Jews form shake palm fronds and say something that sounds very much like "Hosanna, hosanna, hosanna." I asked if that ran any bells - complete blank looks, Every time I referred to anything from the Christian scriptures, the kids were very lost, until I gave them chapter and verse. The ministers stayed red faced most of the time.

When it was done, one of the minsters told me about the drop 'em off/pick 'em up thing.

I assumed that since the church is one of those places that emphasizes the Bible so much, the kids would know it very well. The reality was that the kids being in a church group didn't mean very much about their beliefs, knowledge, or theology. It really meant that their parents felt comfortable dropping them off there on Sunday night. The parents probably mainly felt that it was a relatively "safe" place for their kids to socialize.

The same may be true of church (and probably synagogue) youth groups in general - it may say something about the parents' social, political, or cultural leanings, and not much about the kids at all.

Mike

 

[yenchisks]

poeple

 

[CBS220]

yenchisks, that's a stupid thing to say.

RPCVY, it is a shame. Those youth groups tend to be more about day care than about religion.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Some of these posts seem to be pretty pathetic attempts at making church bashing "gun related".

There's really no reason why them being a church group has anything to do with it.

All to often church groups are the most inconsiderate groups around.

Proof

 

[.38 Special]

I'd love to hear the explanation, because what these posters say is true.

The explanation is that they really don't have any reason to take responsibility for their actions: no matter what they do, they'll be forgiven at the end of the week.

Not that I'm trolling or anything...

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well with any noobs, you HAVE to maintain a certain level of experienced-to-noobs ratio, commensurate with the noobishness, or there's gonna be trouble. No more than 1 to 5. Preferably no more than 1 to 3. I don't know how you can just turn a whole group of noobs loose with no supervision - sounds very unsafe indeed.

 

[Restorer]

As far as "proof" goes, go hang out at a theme park on pretty much any given summer day. "Church" youth group outings are as much about marketing strategy as they are about religion. A lot of the kids are not members of the church or don't even attend the church. The outings are an attempt to establish a brand...i.e., "my 'Methodist' group has more people and does more fun stuff than your 'Baptist' group...so join us." Insert any other group name as you wish.

Chaperons get overwhelmed in the process. They can barely keep up with their own kids, much less the guests. Havoc can ensue. Things get broken, kids get (gasp!) high or pregnant, strangers get offended. Just because the word "church" or "religion" is involved doesn't mean it is holy.

I hate to sound so cynical but I've been involved in organizing, attending and running dozens of these events. These things are done primarily as church growth and retention tools and also as rewards for goals attained and/or good behavior (irony intended.)

Church group and shooting range? That's like building a kids' nursery next to a dingo kennel. Be afraid....be very, very afraid.

And if **** means what I think it does...that's pretty crude and definitely not High Road. And if emperical proof is not enough, then I will still STFH.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

So one guy on the internet telling one anecdotal story that may or may not be true counts as "empirical proof"?

Don't tell me you honestly expect me to fall for that.

As I said before, this entire thread is basically a poorly shrouded attempt by some bitter and prejudice people to take pot shots at religion under the guise of it being "gun related".

 

[myrockfight]

While some of the things said in this thread may be true, many are not high road. Especially, ****.

Seriously, are all the mean spirited replies necessary in any way. Because they sure aren't productive in communicating.


I think people just expect more of certain groups because of their title. People expect more of certain people because of their title. It seems a lot of unwarranted expectations are made by some and an awful lot of unwarranted exceptions are passed out with unexpected consequences.



Regardless of good intentions, if you give enough people enough rope, expect someone to get hanged - whether it be themselves or someone sticking their neck out (intentionally or not).

 

[RPCVYemen]

I think people just expect more of certain groups because of their title. People expect more of certain people because of their title.

That was my point - to keep your expectations about groups of any kind more or less in check. Now I do honestly think (or maybe hope) that the church/synagogue groups are likely to be more well mannered/less disruptive than a random sample of kids of the same age. But keep your expectations in line - and being in a church group does not imply much about gun safety training.

Mike

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I am going to stand firm in my opinion that most of these groups are merely semi-religious flavored teen day cares. Adding guns to the mix is stupid if not downright criminally negligent. I'm not knocking either all churches or all youth groups. I attend a church, I am a Christian, and I have been to the range with church youth before. One of my best friends is a youth minister and we have had this talk before after a run in with another church group at a theater where we couldn't hear the movie over the other kids screaming at each other. The times he has taken kids it has never been more than a 1 to 3 ratio of experienced gun owners to kids. Most of these kids in church youth groups usually treat it as a social club and run wild.

 

[SSN Vet]

Those idiots shouldn't be allowed out in public, much less handling guns.

Now that's a real strong R2K&BA statement....

Let's get the government to make sure that incompetant people aren't allowed to handle guns....

Just be careful. You might get what you ask for, and then have one of the illustrius powers that be declare that all non-government officials are incompetant.

Maybe you could have done some good and spoken to the group leader/organizer about your safety concerns.

You could have done some good, but instead chose to run away.

 

[SSN Vet]

semi-religious flavored teen day cares

aint that the truth....

so who should be criticized? the lame parents who utilize (use) the service and fail to impart values like respect and self control at home...

or...

the volunteer youth workers, who are trying to give the kids some kind of drug and alcohol free entertainment alternative with a hopefully positive message tacked on.

Personally, I'm not a big advocate of entertainment orieinted outreach. But it is by far the norm.

 

[Restorer]

I think one reason we're taking note of this is the prevalence of these groups. Other groups travel...bands, teams,etc but there is usually a goal other than entertainment involved. I've seen an awful lot of good come of church group trips and some bad things have happened. That poor kid who got his head cut off at Six Flags was with a church group. He had to climb 2 fences and pass several "Warning!" signs to get to that ride. Where was his supervision? No doubt doing their level best to keep up with everybody but at the usual chaperon/member ratio that ain't haoppening.

In other words, church groups are getting a hard rap here because there are way more of them out there than any other group. That equates to more opportunity for tragedy.

 

[RPCVYemen]

I am going to stand firm in my opinion that most of these groups are merely semi-religious flavored teen day cares.

A little harsh, but probably correct. Parents are more comfortable thinking of their kids hanging around the church youth group than hanging at the mall with a random collection of kids. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

And my observation is that it is usually men who are not stepping up. I chaperoned my son's marching band group at every event and band comp for 4 years. The honest truth is that we had, in general, more moms volunteering than we needed, and next to no dads. The dads were too busy doing manly things - golf, watching sports on TV, etc. - to actually spend time with teens.

The times he has taken kids it has never been more than a 1 to 3 ratio of experienced gun owners to kids.

That ratio is the critical issue. The OP also didn't say if he offered to help - I can't tell if he offered to help supervise or left the range in a huff.

Another experienced gun owner might have been helpful. I have to say that when I have explained/taught gun safety rules to people who don't know them, they have all been appreciative. Kids - teenage boys in particular - thing the rules are cool - it means they know something about guns that their friends don't know. The only exception is, of course, "gunnies" who think the volume of ammo they brought with them or the camo clothes they are wearing means that range rules don't apply.

Mike

 

[drgrenthum]

If as many people showed up as the OP has lead us to believe i would have probably left too. There is a big difference between wanting to help a few people with the four rules and helping to try and control chaos. I love being able to show people the ropes but i can only efficiently handle 5 people perferably 3.

However if i grab a group of them and there are still people from other groups sweeping me with their muzzle, its just not worth my life. That is a situation where i try to tell the powers that be they are asking for trouble in a nice way, and i get.

 

[Justin]

This one's done. Sorry, but we don't do religion threads here.