Cimarron Firearms Company Open Tops?

[El Tejon]

Christmas is coming and I am attempting to decide upon a gift for my father.

Several Problems: 1. he has everything, 2. he wants nothing

While he is a Ruger fan (buying Rugers since the '50s, he enjoys all things "Old West." Want do you think of weapons from Cimarron?

I was thinking the Army Open Top in .44 Colt? http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/OpenTop7.5Army.htm Is this a good present or an insult?

Maybe a Hartford instead?

 

[Old Fuff]

While I haven’t bought an open-top, I have purchased other Cimarron/Uberti revolvers and been well satisfied with them. This is a good (and experienced) company to deal with

Do keep in mind that the only thing that keeps these revolvers together is a key, or “wedge” that goes through a slot cut in the front of the cylinder base pin. This posed no problems in the original guns that fired black powder cartridges. However, Mike Venturino, who has a lot more experience with these reproductions then I do, recommends that they be used with handloaded black powder cartridges. Others I’m sure are using smokeless powder rounds of current manufacture. If you do so be sure the loads are very mild.

Also replica cap & ball revolvers that are converted to cartridge have oversized bores for the round that they use. This may lower the pressure and make the experience safer, but it usually has a negative effect on accuracy unless the bore is reamed out and lined to the proper size. Those revolvers manufactured as open-tops in the first place may (or may not) have correct size bores.

I’d ask about these points before I bought one.

 

[Eightball]

When you find out about the questions Old Fuff poses, let us know......

because you may have just found me the next thing to spend my money on .

 

[El Tejon]

Old, yes, I remember Duke talking to Clint Smith about these technical issues.

I reason that if I bought dad one in .44 Colt the loads will be sufficiently mild as not to cause problems. He can roll his own with the RCBS set up in the garage that I think has been there since 1975.

As well, he is not into driving tacks or competition, he just takes pistols down to the Marion County Fish & Game Club and shoots a bit every weekend.

Good point about the bore. Had not considered that. Do you think that would be an issue in a caliber such as 44 Colt? Dad still has access to the "General Motors mafia" of retired and semi-retired T&D guys who can do all kinds of neat stuff with metal. So, if it had to be re-bored, he can do it.

 

[Old Fuff]

The original .44 Colt cartridge had a heeled bullet - same as a ,22 LR. The bullet diameter at the front was .450" or so. Conventional .44 bullets used in cartridges such as .44 Special or .44 Magnum run .429" or maybe .430".

Cap & Ball reproductions have bores in the .452 - .460" range, depending on what model, and who makes it.

As you can see, in some cases the bullet can sort of wobble down the bore.

Now to be frank, I don't know what bore size they are using in the open-tops, but Cimmaron would be able to tell you, and make ammunition recommendations. Bullet molds are availabe to make .44 heeled bullets, but I have no idea how envolved you or your Dad would want to get into this.

On the other hand, if the Cimmarron/Uberti open-top bores are around .430" there isn't any problem. Those who are converting regular reproduction C & B revolvers may not see very good accuracy, but the guns are safe unless they get carried away with the loads they use.

 

[El Tejon]

I will call tomorrow Cimarron and report back.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Mine in .38 special was made to shoot modern .38's, so the bore wasn't oversized as an original would be. It shot GREAT! I got it in .38 as it was the lightest cartridge in case I couldn't find the low pressure cowboy loads, and very cheap and easy to find when one isn't realoading. If a reloader or if the local shops carry lots of different cowboy loads, then not really a factor.

LD

 

[mec]

A friend has one in 38 special. It is accurate and nicely finished. he had to replace a very under sized mainspring that broke after a few firings but fortunately generic Navy parts fit. The gun is unmarked but we think it might have come from Armeee San Marco. If so, it works unusually well for one of their guns.

 

[Onmilo]

I own this set of Cimarron 1872 Open Tops, both in .44 Colt.

One gun is an early three digit serial number and the other is a year and a half older four digit.

The ".44 Colt" cartridge these guns use is not the old heel seat bullet design, the cartridge is really nothing more than a shortened .44 Special cartridge case with a small diameter base rim.
Bullet diameter is the standard .429" and as a bonus the Open Tops will also accept current .44 Russian cartridges.
Mild smokeless loads will present no problems of any sort in these guns and blackpowder or replacement blackpowder loads are a treat to shoot.
If you choose one of the new versions of this gun in caliber .44 Special do not even think of loading something like a Cor-Bon high pressure smokeless load in the gun.
They may be of modern steel but the design just will not handle that much pressure for very long.

Both revolvers have shown themselves to be more accurate than I expected them to be and the only weak link they both have exhibited is the loading gate springs.
Both revolvers broke their loading gate springs within the first 500 rounds fired.
Replacements are available from Cimarron and Uberti USA or Stoeger and I would recommend aquiring a couple of extras.
I have yet to break the replacement springs and the new ones are probably of much better design, but just in case, buy a spare or two.

The most current Open Tops feature higher than neccessary front sights and this is good because they allow the shooter to properly regulate the sights to the chosen load.
Neither of my revolvers were off center of windage enough to worry about but if the gun shoots too far to left or right, there is enough extra material in the rear sight notch that you can file the notch, carefully file the left side to move impact to the left and right side to move impact to the right.

These are my two favorite CASS revolvers, I don't win any matches but I have a lot of fun shooting in them.
Now if I can just get Uberti to build Henry rifle replicas in .44 Russian or .44 Colt,,,,,

 

[Billy Sparks]

I have been seriously considering one of these no reason other than I think it is neat. I was considering one in .38 Special and then only shoot Cowboy Action loads (which are on the light side) out of it.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Mec, that's not an Open Top. That's an 1860 Army conversion. If you look at the difference between the top two pictures, you can tell by the section behind the cylinder, where the "conversion" takes place on the top one and the one piece recoil shield of the '72 on the lower picture. Also notice the difference in the shape of the barrel. The 1860 conversion has a space in the underlug where the loading lever would have pushed the ball into the cylinder. The 1872 doesn't have this.

 

[ozwyn]

I have no idea how well they work, but they are damn nice to look at based on this thread.

 

[mec]

I haven't studied these but I believe the owner told me the same thing.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Maybe a Hartford instead?

If you mean a Hartford Armory 1875, then you have my vote. The HA 1875 revolvers are IMNSHO the finest reproduction single action revolvers being manufactured today. I have one of the first pairs they produced, and they're awesome.

Since a Hartford Armory 1875 lists for $1,495 though, I think you may be referring to some other "Hartford." Perhaps a SAA clone?

 

[El Tejon]

Father, no, I was referencing a Hartford Armory.

Onm, thanks ever so much for the info.

 

[El Tejon]

Down in Indianapolis for a seminar Thursday and Friday and staying at the folks place. I showed my Dad the photo of the open top from Cimarron's website, he was not impressed.

He did like the Lightning copy and the Hartford guns. He likes the Remington SBS shotgun as well. Oh, well, maybe I'll stumble across something else in 3 months.

 

[timothy75]

I have 3 opentops 38,44,and 45 all barrels are the correct size for current ammo. All have been great shooters and I'm sure your dad would love any of them. All have held up well and I've been harder on them than I probably should have. Mec's 71 is interesting, if it was a 60 conversion it should have a rebated frame to acomodate the step in the cylinder. Good luck